PP TRIPODS..

[TOMAHAWK]

After looking at the trailer ...one or two questions arise about the tripods

1 .. I don't think they are 100ft tall ..more like what 40/50 , given the size of the gun/gunners they don't seen that tall ...any thoughts

2. we appear not to be looking at a JW type design ..there appears to be not much distance between the front legs , so I assume the tripod has quite a narrow body with the legs coming out from under.

3. the legs do not appear to match the handing machine design ..I cannot see the martians having two DIFFERENT designs ie using totally different design for limbs for the two machines ...the HM legs are thin..sorta spider like, wheres the FM seems to have quite chunky heavy legs

bear in mind the logistics of designing new stuff, were it is easier to adapt existing stuff to suit, which i think the martians did

to prove a point the Germans in WW2 used many many different types of vehicles/tanks AT THE SAME TIMEperiod causing a logistical nightmare ie panzer 3, 4 , 5 (panther) , 6 (tiger), king tiger, jagdpanther, jagdtiger etc whereas the Russians used T34's and KV1's as their MAIN tanks ...easier to produce quickly and easier to repair ..ie cannabilse a damaged T34 to fix a T34 ...You cannot do that with a panzer 3 and a tiger easily


sorry for going on but it is easier to explain what I am going on about if i used a real life example

any particular thoughts

[McTodd]

Hmmm, well, it's such a fleeting glimpse it's hard to tell. You can only really see the lower leg, so we don't know how high they go.

I'd say it's definitely not a JW type 'splayed' layout (which suits me, I'm not very keen on that look).

Yes, the legs definitely look very different stylistically from the Handling Machine. And, on the whole, when artists depict the FM and HM, they tend to have many similarities between them - economy of design, as you might say.

On the other hand, the functions of the FM and HM are so different, should we really expect them to have, if not interchangeable, then at least similar parts?

Yes, the Germans did have a logistical nightmare during WWII, due to their utterly chaotic (yes, chaotic - so much for German efficiency) procurement.

On the other hand, the Martians aren't Germans.

Interchangeability is fine within the same systems. So we would expect the FMs to be identical to each other, and such they appear to have been. Likewise for the HMs. But there's no real need for interchangeability between systems.

After all, even the Americans, who poured out tens of thousands of standardised Shermans, didn't make trucks from the same parts as tanks.

[MikeH]

In the books the Martians produce there own metals and things from the surrounding materials I think, so technically they probably have the scope to build what they like.

[McTodd]

That too.

After all, those cylinders were huge (thirty yards across by, what, a hundred long?) and they only carried five Martians plus parts for Fighting Machines and Handling machines. Disassembled, they probably didn't take up too much space.

So the Martians must have brought some pretty hefty other kit - virtual factories, perhaps.

Still, it does make sense for there to be some level of standardisation or similar design ethos, though that doesn't mean an HM has to look like a cut-down FM. After all, a propos my earlier comment about Shermans and trucks - they may not have used the same parts, but under the skin they still had similarities - petrol engines; transmission systems; seating; controls; etc. They followed general design principles. So we might expect the same for the Martians.

[lanceradvanced]

TOMAHAWK said:

1 .. I don't think they are 100ft tall ..more like what 40/50 , given the size of the gun/gunners they don't seen that tall ...any thoughts

Just giving a rough eyeball, I'd say the legs go up about 60' at least, (assumes the ankle is about 6' high, and there about 10x that height, to a point where the legs meet, but that would be distorted downwards by perspective. Of course we have no idea how much the body will add to that..

the legs do not appear to match the handing machine design ..I cannot see the martians having two DIFFERENT designs ie using totally different design for limbs for the two machines ...the HM legs are thin..sorta spider like, wheres the FM seems to have quite chunky heavy legs

Diffrent job, diffrent architecture, dogs legs are not giraffe's legs, are not elephant's legs, despite the common ancestry. The Handling machines don't need to move nearly as fast as the Fighting machine, and they have less of the proportional load on each leg (3 vs 5).

bear in mind the logistics of designing new stuff, were it is easier to adapt existing stuff to suit, which i think the martians did

So which came first? There's really no evidence of precedence of one design to the other, they could have been designed from the ground up on mars, considering they both were being engineered for a complelty new enviroment, or addapted from existing machines on mars, serving the same purpose, the original design being layers of design back, much like both a SmartCar and a Hummer could trace back to a Model T

to prove a point the Germans in WW2 used many many different types of vehicles/tanks AT THE SAME TIMEperiod causing a logistical nightmare ie panzer 3, 4 , 5 (panther) , 6 (tiger), king tiger, jagdpanther, jagdtiger etc whereas the Russians used T34's and KV1's as their MAIN tanks ...easier to produce quickly and easier to repair ..ie cannabilse a damaged T34 to fix a T34 ...You cannot do that with a panzer 3 and a tiger easily

Which might apply if the martians were using diffrent designs of Fighting Machine, or Handling Machine, however the real situation is more like advocating being able to use the parts of a Volkswagen "Thing" to repair a Tiger Tank, or vise/versa

This isn't to say that because the gross structures are diffrent, that the smaller assemblies -couldn't- have been modular , cockpits, powerplants, psudo-muscular actuators all could be possible interchangable between the HMs and FMs

[Lucius909]

I myself was intrigued by the motion of the tripods, and though of the Wells description "like a milk stool bowled along the ground" or similar. I always tended to envisage a fighting machine body with a rotating chassis underneath, which would live up to that description and provide gyroscopic stability.

But then, what do I know???!!!

[Bayne]

[glow=red,2,300]Depending on how you view The Crystal Egg, it suggests the Martians did have similar machines in use on Mars.. that or they were testing them pre-invasion.

[/glow]

[HTT]

[glow=purple,2,300]As we can only see the lower part of the legs, we can only speculate on the height. I should think though, that they'll be 'bout 100ft.

Not sure about distance between legs - this could be down to perspective, but I do expect a much narrower body.

Regarding the designs - The FMs are war machines, so I'd expect them to be more hard metal for battle purposes. The HMs however, are more for transport & gathering, not battle. Perhaps they developed these along organic technology lines so they could scuttle about easier? Perhaps it's the martian equivalent of a fighter plane (FM) and a Mars Rover (HM)...[/glow]

[HTT]

[glow=purple,2,300]Here's what Timmy said about the martian machines last year:[/glow]

it's done through the eyes of a Victorian. Wells wrote this at the height of the Industrial Age, when human beings were manufacturing machines that were the size of houses, and human beings had become fascinated with their ability to make wrenches that were bigger than a car, or pistons that were the size of a Mack truck. They were enamored of their ability to bolt together giant metal structures, and bridges that over-scaled us and humbled us in an almost god-like kind of way. So we drew heavily on the context of the Industrial Age and the weight of what a 100-foot-high walking machine would have felt like. The other perspective that we drew heavily from is the Martians themselves; what these creatures were as a culture; who these creatures were as a race. What was their motive? Did they have religion? Did they have myth in their own culture - is there any indication of that? Who did they most resemble in our own human history? Who were they the most like? Once we started to come up with these answers, which cultures they most represented from our near and distant past, we were able to look at those people and ask "How did they approach technology?" So their technology is a wonderful mix of antiquity and modernized technology at the same time. It's nothing like Star Wars. It's not like anything you've seen on the internet. In fact, the only thing I could say as an example is, if the Medievalists with their giant catapults had discovered how to use computer technology and had somehow strapped computers into their massive, over-scaled catapults, what would that have looked like? How scary and frightening would a computer-controlled Medieval catapult be that shoots flaming balls the size of elephants?

[glow=purple,2,300]So, I'm thinking that if the FM is mix of Victoriana & Technology, how would it end up looking? Like Humongous in Labyrinth? - A big basin atop three shiny legs, with a seat for a little bloke twiddling some brass knobbed levers?

Personally, I like my FMs wreathed in nice shiny advanced technology, and not incorporating antiquated elements.[/glow]

[McTodd]

HailTheTripod said:

[glow=purple,2,300]So, I'm thinking that if the FM is mix of Victoriana & Technology, how would it end up looking? Like Humongous in Labyrinth? - A big basin atop three shiny legs, with a seat for a little bloke twiddling some brass knobbed levers?[/glow]

Sounds fab! With rivets! I love rivets!

[beecus]

''The Martians seem to have calculated their descent with amazing subtlety--their mathematical learning is evidently far in excess of ours--and to have carried out their preparations with a well-nigh perfect unanimity.''

Remember that these martians are vastly superior, I find it hard to believe that they would start an invasion and then design the equipment on the battlefront

They may or may not have been in use on Mars but they were obviously designed well before the invasion. ;D

[HTT]

[glow=purple,2,300]True, they may have been designed and tested on Mars, but as the martians only observed us from afar, they have no real Xp of Earth. Unanticipated elements such as gravity, rain, mud, water, tarmac, etc may cause problems with the design, and may need a bit of tinkering with the old mechano set to get it up and running properly.

It could be that the cylinders were lined with an array of different limbs, to counter different situations or terrain. [/glow]

[GBBULLDOG]

It is fair to say that any species capable of travelling from Mars to Earth would have a good understanding of the laws of Physics including gravitational influences due to planetary size. Any vehicles the Martians would bring would obviously be constructed to work effectively with Earth's greater gravitational acceleration. Indeed the novel discusses the effects that Earth's gravity has on the Martians themselves, i.e. they become less agile. The description of the first emerging Martian falling over the edge of the cylinder and screaming in pain as it hits the crater floor is a very good example of this. Their skeletal structure may not be strong enough to withstand such a fall without causing some injury. In essence that is what Well's was getting at. The Martians themselves are puny but with the technology they become all powerful. Well's, to my understanding, wrote the novel in response to his views regarding the British Empire's colonialism. We are indeed the Martians! The same could be said about America now or the Roman Empire etc... And alas as with all empires, they fall. Oops! got a bit political there - SORRY!

[HTT]

[glow=purple,2,300]Having an understanding of the theory doesn't mean that the machines would work in practise. Anyway, if the machines were configured to cater for a different gravity, wouldn't they also design ome form of encounter suit to protect themselves when on Earth?

Is their knowledge of physics all that profound? After all, their method of travel is being fired from a big gun in the right direction! Not exactly rocket-science! ;D[/glow]

[lanceradvanced]

GBBULLDOG said:

The description of the first emerging Martian falling over the edge of the cylinder and screaming in pain as it hits the crater floor is a very good example of this. Their skeletal structure may not be strong enough to withstand such a fall without causing some injury.

The martian didn't nesc "Scream in pain" it says it ". I heard it give a peculiar thick cry", which might be anything from screaming in pain, to "doh!" or "get me a ladder fred!", and it sems to be quite able to nab the shopkeeper a lil bit later...

(On a personal note, I don't think the martians had skeletons, or if they did, it's cartiligionus at best, since their corpses were described as "gristle")

Is their knowledge of physics all that profound? After all, their method of travel is being fired from a big gun in the right direction! Not exactly rocket-science!

Considering that we have reasonably good rockets, and are still tinkering with space guns, I'd say that the martians are pretty good at the phyiscal sciences (besides, finding that "right direction takes a good grasp of physics in and of itself)

[Gnorn]

Yes, I allways found that part a bit comical. Martian rises himself up, going all scary, and then... bump... it falls on his face. Doh fits quit nicely :-)

-Gnorn

[RossH]

HailTheTripod said:

[glow=purple,2,300]Having an understanding of the theory doesn't mean that the machines would work in practise. [/glow]

And of course, the MArtians that are sent to earth would probably not be the Martian scientists that invented the technology but people who knew how to USE it...

[Lensman]

HailTheTripod said:

Is their knowledge of physics all that profound? After all, their method of travel is being fired from a big gun in the right direction! Not exactly rocket-science! ;D

It may be parochialism to assume the Martians' science is less advanced than ours because they used a giant cannon to travel from Mars to Earth. Rockets are massively inefficient-- the Apollo/Saturn V rocket used half its fuel to lift itself its own height above the launch pad. With a giant cannon, you leave all the weight of the fuel and propulsion system back on the ground. And of course it's reusable.

If we poor humans tried to use this system, we'd have a hard time of it because it would be impossible to control the trajectory precisely enough; we would need to include at least small thruster rockets to provide mid-course corrections. Clearly the Martians are more advanced in this respect than we are.

There have been proposals to construct a "space cannon" here on earth; for example, to fire high-velocity payloads, using very highly compressed gas, to provide supplies for a moonbase. The high G forces involved in such a launch would prohibit passengers from surviving such a launch.

Presumably the Martians' cannon had a very long barrel-- possibly miles long-- plus some method of providing constant thrust for the length of the barrel, such as multiple, staged propulsive charges, or possibly use of the Heat Ray to heat ice into hot gas, as Christopher Priest suggested in The Space Machine.