Whas he talking about a robot?

[Tripod]

When Wells whas talking about the Digging Machine he sayd that it wasn't controlled by a Martian.
Could it be that he whas meaning a robot or something like that?

It whas the first thing that I thought about when I read it.

Your thoughts.
Tripod

[Thunder Child]

I always thought that this is a (industrial) robot too. But Wells stated that it was not controlled by a Martian as far as he could see...

Greetings,
Johan

[Earthrise]

Yes,
Definitely a robot, though I used to think it was a piece of industrial equipment like an oil drill or refinery. I want to see if this is the first mention of a robot by a science fiction writer; I remember hearing that author's name and it wasn't Wells. He just mentions it in passing, I didn't notice it in over 20 readings; he just throws away another amazing line. In 1898, you could have written a whole book on the digging machine.

Earthrise

[Curate]

Do you mean this line:
"So far as I could see, the thing was without a directing martian at all" ?

Anytime I read that line I assumed that the narrator considered the machine so lifelike that he almost thought of it as being alive.

On another note, there's a fair amount of construction work going on across the street from where I work. Looking at the various earth movers and bulldozers digging away I can't help but think of martians working in the pit. It's surprising how much like a handing machine a modern day earth mover can be

[Charles]

I think it is a robot, too, at least the way we would normally think of a robot, an automaton. Leon Stover comments in his critical edition that the Handling Machines are actually the robots and indeed make their first appearance in science fiction here (good thinking, Earthrise). But from the description of the Handling Machines they sound to me more like a crane or picker used in heavy construction - a tool which multiplies the user's strength or dexterity, and something that requires conscious intelligent control. But Stover's annotated editions are controversial in Wellsian circles in more ways than one, so go figure.

[Tripod]

Thanx for responding so fast on this topic!

Well I almost know for sure that it wasn't the first time that some one discribes a robot.

But I'm completly sure that Wells whas talking about one.

Tripod

[Charles]

Yeah, Stover's work isn't exactly embraced by all Wellsians, mainly because of his interpretations of the apparent political thought in the scientific romances. I think the work he has done is brilliant, though I myself don't agree with him all the time, either.

[Earthrise]

Dave,
Thanks for not mentioning the World Cup

Nah, most of the country doesn't follow Mugby, but we will watch any game in which Australia is playing (even lawn bowls). Even for Mugby, it was a great game, down to second extra time and a drop goal in the dying minutes to break the tie. You can't ask for a better final than that.

Did you want to talk about the Ashes?

Earthrise, packing up the Green and Gold until the Cricket season.

[Bayne]

[glow=red,2,300]Now if only the people at Real Robots had given us handling machine parts for the robot instead of stupid formula one parts I'd have been happy![/glow]

[Tripod]

Hahaha!

Yes, I completly agree with that one Bayne!

[x200]

I posted the following not long ago with around 3 different subjects in "martian communication" on this forum.. I was reading this thread then that one and I got carried away and posted about the digging machine there too

anyway this is whats in the other thread.. all the rest belongs in that thread, however this section I wrote is more most relevence here

the digging machine
****************

the digging machine, and for this I must refer to the real time strategy game, is a controlable robot.. it is controlable of course for game reasons.. however.. that got me thinking.. IF the martians possesed artificial intelligence technology, they would have sent meer robots to destroy earth and simply come a few years later (months maybe) when its all said and done.. however they did not, the fighting machines, flyers and handling machines where inhabbited by there martian controlers...

so the digging machine is likely NOT a robot in the true AI sence.. but a form of radio control, most likely stemming from a subsystem of its sister machine... the handling machine.. of which have similar duties to some extent..

the reason for the digging machine not being directly controled would have been for a few reasons.. them being, increased earth gravity and the inclinations of which the digging machine would need to allign itself (ie near vertical to dig down) would make it impossible for a martian bulk the size of a bear to effectively control the levers and or stay "seated" within the machine when it was digging down.. or indeed come back up.. also with the added weight of the martian driver.. it would I dare say have alot of traction troubles in freshly dug soil...
so I beleve its rather radio control controled by the ever present handling machine...

having it been a computer controled program based simple robot with a closed program, would have been just as illadvised... due to the different conditions between earth and mars and the force required to do things differing somewhat, programming something from an alien planet with a lower gravity (it had to be tested on mars im guessing) to dig a hole X - Y dimensions etc.. would result in either a hole too big.. or simply overload its motors.. it would atleast require the constant correction from an ever watchfull martian to make sure it doesnt make mistakes.. in which in such case.. direct radio type control would have been the prefered option..

EDIT:
just thought of something.. the initial martian fighting machine construction.. the green smoke would suggest some sort of advanced welding to construct the machines... a martian operating such a heat related device would likely be damaged or be turned into a martian meatball due to its oily skin being somewhat flamable and also for that reason it wouldnt be desireable for one to operate machinery near heat of any kind because they need to keep there skin wet and flexable..

the digging machine was never seen till later, however in the game it is smaller than all other machines and could easyly hide inside the cylinder untill later on.. the handling machine would maybe later perform maintainence duties and or construction.. but that wasnt constructed untill later on.. so its plausable.. that the digging machine is an all round utility machine like in the strategy game rather than just a machine brought to earth for the minimally important task of digging in the soft earth soil

[Bayne]

[glow=red,2,300]I don't think the digging machine would require full AI to be a robot, It could have had a simple adaptive program to allow itself to adjust to Earth conditions. The robot could have a variety of orders, Martian control switching between these would nonetheless still leave it a robot (or Real Robots owes me some money!).

I'm pretty sure the digging machine was one of the most important machines of the invasion... You land in a pit, you crawl around, your mouth is rather close to the ground, it starts to rain and there is no drainage... Dun Dun dahhhhhhh very short invasion

The green smoke is an interesting topic in itself, the cylinders trail it, the pits exude puffs of it, the heatray does too on it's first outing, and it squirts from the joints of the martian machines![/glow]

[Charles]

No matter what they're like in games, digging machines were said to be "without a directing Martian at all."

The green smoke is another theatrical device Wells employed to emphasize the point that the Martians' alien technology was considerably further ahead of mankind in science and technology. The color green seems to be representative of Martian technology; also mentioned is green vapour squirting from the joints of fighting-machines, the green of falling cylinders and green smoke from aluminium making. Given there was no process involving the production of aluminium that generated green light or smoke that Wells could have known of, he attaches the otherwordly symbolism rather well. Now we have "Little Green Men" in the public imagination...

[Bobble]

Towards the end of the book the Jounalist mentions a handling machine that had crashed into a house in London because it martian 'driver' had died !!

This suggests that the indeed under martian direction rather than being robotic !!

[Thunder Child]

Hi Bobble,

I think that you are talking about the Handling Machine itself now. The Handling Machine was indeed controled by a Martian inside. We are talking about the Digging Mechanism. That weird thing that caused the rhythmic shocks in the ruined house while working.

Greetings,
Johan

[Earthrise]

"..down on the left a busy little digging mechanism had come into view, emitting jets of green vapour and working its way round the pit, excavating and embanking in a methodical and discriminating manner.... It piped and whistled as it worked. So far as I could see, the thing was without a directing Martian at all."

I see the Digging Machine as set and forget. Give it a digging plan, maybe downloaded from a host Handling Machine and it goes and does the job with a minimum of control. Bit like the simple robots we're making nowadays, able to cope with basic challenges on their own.

"...brought with them certain fresh appliances that stood in an orderly manner about the cylinder. The second handling-machine was now completed, and was busied in serving one of the novel contrivances the big machine had brought. This was a body resembling a milk can in its general form, above which oscillated a pear-shaped receptacle, and from which a stream of white powder flowed into a circular basin below.

The oscillatory motion was imparted to this by one tentacle of the handling-machine. With two spatulate hands the handling-machine was digging out and flinging masses of clay into the pear-shaped receptacle above, while with another arm it periodically opened a door and removed rusty and blackened clinkers from the middle part of the machine. Another steely tentacle directed the powder from the basin along a ribbed channel towards some receiver that was hidden from me by the mound of bluish dust. From this unseen receiver a little thread of green smoke rose vertically into the quiet air. As I looked, the handling-machine, with a faint and musical clinking, extended, telescopic fashion, a tentacle that had been a moment before a mere blunt projection, until its end was hidden behind the mound of clay. In another second it had lifted a bar of white aluminium into sight, untarnished as yet, and shining dazzlingly, and deposited it in a growing stack of bars that stood at the side of the pit. Between sunset and starlight this dexterous machine must have made more than a hundred such bars out of the crude clay, and the mound of bluish dust rose steadily until it topped the side of the pit."

Looks like the Martians are at a limited level of automation. Here the Handling Machine provides the motion for a mini aluminium refinery. The HM also shovels the raw materials in and stacks the resulting aluminium bars. Does this mean the digging machine provides the raw material for the HM to shovel into the processor?

"It was very late in the night, and the moon was shining brightly. The Martians had taken away the excavating-machine".

Why is the digging automated, and the processing not? Consider the Martian controls a machine to control a machine to process aluminium; seems to be a superfluous step here. Maybe the basic labour has been given over to a “slave” machine while the more highly skilled duties are retained by the sentient Martian (machine-assisted). Just like the first Socialist dreamed, human equality by automating the most menial and labour-intensive duties. Keep dreaming boys, still cheaper to have under-age Asians make our Nikes.

In summary, the Digging machine is a "slave" robot to do menial tasks. There are other hinted-at machines, assuming they also perform labourious duties. On hearing of this Socialist dream when I was a kid, I wondered what would we all do when all menial labour was abolished. Looks like the Roman Empire collapsed from two forces; the fact that the slaves outnumbered the citizens and the hedonism of the citizen class freed of duty and responsibility. Maybe the Martians are telling us to stay engaged and only allow the most menial tasks to be automated.

Earthrise.

[Moorkey]

I have always thought the Digging machine was controlled, as per the Unmanned aircraft we see today, by the occupant of the Handler, to avoid the occupant having to exit his vehicle to carry out tasks too intricate for the Handler's claws.

[Lensman]

Charles is our resident WotW & Wells expert here, and I hesitate to dispute any fact or interpretation with him, but it does seem to me Wells is leaving open the possibility that the digging machine was not actually an automaton, that in fact it was being controlled directly by a method the Narrator could not see. As was pointed out in a thread long ago, this could have been something as simple as a control cable placed where the Narrator could not see it.

But there *is* a very clear indication that the Martians had some degree of automation. From I-12, describing the first Tripod destroyed by artillery:

"The decapitated colossus reeled like a drunken giant; but it did not fall over. It recovered its balance by a miracle, and, no longer heeding its steps and with the camera that fired the Heat-Ray now rigidly upheld, it reeled swiftly upon Shepperton. The living intelligence, the Martian within the hood, was slain... and the Thing was now a mere intricate device of metal whirling to destruction. It drove along in a straight line, incapable of guidence."

Clearly there was some degree of automation involved in the Tripod being able to continue walking without being controlled.

However, I do not at all agree that if the Martians had some degree of automation they could have handled the entire invasion without any actual Martians present. Right now in building robots we're struggling to build something with the AI sophistication of an insect. We're not there yet. The digging machine could indeed have been controlled by AI sophisticated enough to perform its limited duties without having anywhere near the "intelligence" to conduct a war. After all, plenty of bugs can dig holes in the ground.

Keep in mind, there's no indication the Martians had electronics in any form, let alone transistors... and certainly not digital computers. We should be thinking in terms of Babbage's Difference Engine when thinking of the Martians' form of automation. Making something like that much more complex is *enormously* harder than making more sophisticated computers. So even if the Martians had been using Babbage-type controllers for their automation for centuries or even millennia, it's entirely possible they might never have advanced beyond the AI of a rather stupid insect.

[Lensman]

earthrise said:

Maybe the Martians are telling us to stay engaged and only allow the most menial tasks to be automated.

That was my interpretation also. The Martians work tirelessly, without needing sleep or breaks, perfect communists like ants or bees. Altho the actions of the Handling-Machine in processing the ore seem to be described in mechanical terms, it is clearly stated that a Martian controls a Handling-Machine directly. So the implication is that a Martian was controlling all that ore processing directly. But if each Martian can work 24 hours a day, that's the equivalent of having 3 times as many humans doing the work. The Martians can *afford* to be somewhat wasteful of their manpower... er, Martianpower. And if you do very little automation even where you could, you keep everyone employed, and therefore-- since they're perfect communists-- keep them all happily working away.