The Artilleryman's Uniform

[Lensman]

Another question for my FAQ.

IMDb says "The Artillery Man is wearing a modern U.S. Marines cover." I'd like to see some pictures of the uniforms in question, both of what British artillery troops stationed in England would have been wearing in 1901 or 1903, and also I'd like to see a picture of the U.S. Marine uniform referred to.

I don't expect a concensus on this, as I know there is argument over whether home troops had been issued the new uniforms of the period vs. them still wearing the old ones. But I'd like to be able to speak in an informed way on the subject in my FAQ.

And I don't even know what is meant by a "cover". Uniform tunic and blouse I've heard of, but what's a "cover"?

[ArmoredTrackLayer]

The poster THINKS that his HAT is a modern Marine hat... Ok...sure....its not. IMDB is full of halfwits...end of story.

PS: they also said that the BREECH LOADING artillery pieces where from the Civil War...

[Thunder Child]

You can say a lot about the Pendragon Movie, but many of the clothing and weapons were right:


robk.proboards13.com/index.cgi?board=pendragon&action=display&thread=1127431697

[Commandingtripod]

So the big question:
Is the clothing and weapons right or has there been some MEGA stuff up that we should all know?

[EvilNerfherder]

There's been a few debates about uniforms over the last few years. I had a spin back through some of it...
I believe Charles deals in military uniforms (as well as doing what he does for the Wells societies) and he once said this ...

''Its an interesting question, what would the British military wear in “Worlds?” Most of us like to imagine the more romantic red and blue uniforms fighting the Martians, even though we know “Worlds” is set in an undefined future - post 1900 at the earliest. I remember W.Y. Carmen mentioned in his reprint of "Dress Regulations 1900," that the use of khaki was far more widespread in 1900 than is often appreciated today.
The use of khaki by Pendragon adheres more to what we know British military forces looked like post-1900/2 (and as Wells couldn't have known them as he was writing in 1896-7). Add to that the fact that Wells was employing the military as he did Martian technology - more for effect than accuracy, and we can explain away any confusion.
But some of us will always see red, blue, and dirty round caps...and that's okay, too. ''

'Sudsoneuk' said this in one debate...

''The soldiers fighting the Martians would almost certainly have been wearing red or blue uniforms... Khaki uniform became regulation for all British regiments serving in India after 1885 and was approved for all foreign service in 1896. It wasn't until 1902 that khaki service dress was worn for ALL occasions, at home and abroad, except those requiring full dress.''



Anyway, these are some prints of turn of the century uniforms...
www.military-prints.com/uniforms.htm
www.military-prints.com/infantry_regiments.htm

[Commandingtripod]

Nice find Nerfherder.

[mctoddridesagain]

As for the artillery, it's not bad, as ArmouredTrackLayer and Thunder Child point out. I've posted elsewhere that at the end of the 19th and turn of the 20th centuries, British Army artillery was in a shoddy state (I mean, we had to buy a load of modern field guns from a German company during the Boer War, for God's sake!).

ATL has a pop at the IMDB poster who claimed Pendragon's guns were Civil War type weapons - ATL is right, IMDB Guy was writing cobblers.

Okay, so the Pendragon prop cannon are a bit simplified and lack detail, but they did make the effort, and only a totally anal grouch would begrudge that (and I say this as a staunch, some say rabid, critic of Pendragon, as old-timers here will know ). Anyway, here's a British 15-pounder breechloading field gun of the period:

[Spleen]

Hi Lensman,

Not sure of you've heard of these but Osprey Books publish a series called 'Men At Arms'. These books cover a massive range of military history and are extremely detailed in uniform patterns. Most armies in history are covered including the British army during it's preiod of change around the turn of the 19th century. You can always find them in Waterstones or Ottakers. A good tip is to look at the bibliography in these books too, they are an excellent source for further research and have helped me no end. Hope this helps.

Spleen.

[beecus]

I think I've pointed this out before...

Book 1 The Fighting Begins

''Under the the railway bridge I found a group of soilders- sappers, I think, men in small round caps, dirty RED jackets unbuttoned, and showing their blue shirts, dark trousers, and boots coming to the calf''

[mctoddridesagain]

Yes, but they were sappers, not the artillery, and much of the debate is about whether or not it would be valid to have some soldiers in the old red jackets, and some in khaki.

It depends on when you think the novel is set - Wells wrote it in 1897, but he set it in the near future (and that's a whole other subject people argue about), the early years of the 20th century. Some people favour 1903, but between 1897 and 1903 there were lot of changes - for example, the Navy changed from the pretty black, white and buff of the Victorians to a uniform, warlike grey; and there is, of course, the argument about Army uniforms. As far as I'm aware, much of the change from the colourful Victorian uniforms was driven by the Boer War, so by 1903 most uniforms were khaki. But is it right to have the Boer War happen at all? Wells doesn't mention it (of course, because he wrote before it happened), so do we assume that WOTW happens in a timeline where there was no Boer War? If so, what are the uniforms like?

So you see, it's quite a complex issue.

[beecus]

Infantry
www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/britishinfantry/manchester1910.htm

Artillery
www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyuniforms/britishartillery/rapost1850.htm

Sappers are just engineers, the Royal Engineers at least during the zulu war (1879) wore the same uniform as the standard soldier.

Saying that, there seems to be a million uniforms as some of the artillery uniforms were also navy blue.

But as that link shows, the red uniform is obviously still being used as late as 1910, and being a ''home'' regiment, I would expect them to have stayed in the red/blue.

Also, the artilleryman in the book is a driver only, so perhaps his uniform differs again from the actual gunners?

What a headache he he he he

[Lensman]

Thanks very much to all who contributed to this thread! This helps a gread deal.

Thanks especially to Beecus and ENH for their links.

And yah that "American civil war artillery" claim was quite bone-headed.

ENH: I e-mailed Charles privately and asked him to look over my FAQ. He had this to say re uniforms:

~~~~~~~~~~~
I saw you asked on wotwonline what a USMC cover was; it is a cap - in the artilleryman's case, a visor cap.

<snip> I will say (as someone that works in the historical militaria field) that Pendragon had more right regarding uniforms than they're being given credit for - BTW, regarding "Redcoats:" red coats are still used to this day, for guard, parade and gala events - depending on the regiment.
~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mr Death Ray]

I don't think it should be a quetion of historical accuracy, but a quetion of how accurate it is to the BOOK.

[EvilNerfherder]

Actually, that's a very good point....

[mctoddridesagain]

georgehayes said:

I don't think it should be a quetion of historical accuracy, but a quetion of how accurate it is to the BOOK.

True, but seeing as some people have chosen to attack it over historical accuracy, it's only fair to respond by debating the matter on that basis.

I mean, let's face it, we've debated every single aspect of the film, including whether or not it is an accurate adaptation of the BOOK, elsewhere on this forum - this happens to be a thread debating its historical accuracy. There's room enough to look at all aspects.

In any case, although it is very true to the book in a literal sense, it's also utter tosh, so that's a debate that's not going very far.