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Post by TOMAHAWK on Jan 31, 2005 20:52:51 GMT
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Post by themotile on Jan 31, 2005 21:10:05 GMT
That would have made a very cool scene, they could have shown Big Ben from the bottom looking up at the clock tower as its hit, it would have conveyed a sense of danger.
The trailer was released as a finished product, it doesnt matter if the FX were finished or not because they should have been for it to have the title "Official Theatrical Trailer". I think we can agree that it needs more that just a little "tweaking and timing adjustments".
Pendragon have done the one thing they cant undoo, they have waisted time, only by putting off a release can they get the time back but by doing that they lose even more audience. If they would have put everything into one ace trailer (or even half decent) it would have changed the face of the campaign. By releasing 3 half baked efforts they wasted 3 months advertising and internet chatter that could have put bums on seats.
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Post by jeffwaynefan on Jan 31, 2005 22:12:05 GMT
Horsal: I dont think Wells actualy meant an actual blade when he made the reference to sword, its just a more dramatic word for weapon. Malf: Sorry dude, your exploding water theory just doesnt hold water (forgive the pun). The super heated steam from your trapped water expands to thousands of times the volume of the water in the stone/concrete, it suddenly needs space in which to exist so forces its way through the weaker parts of the stone/concrete shattering brick and mortar sending pieces this way and that. The weaker parts of the structure would be the morter between the bricks and the load bearing strutts made of stone. You wouldnt have that much water and what you did have probably wouldnt be noticed as it would be internal anyway but the first thing to go would the very stuff holding up your building, or in this case Big Ben. Although super heated steam can cause damage and shatter stone, it would only weaken the structure so it would not convey anywhere near the energy needed to (A) keep hundreds of tons of stone and iron (remember that in the head of Big Ben lies the machinery for the clock, huge iron cogs) and (B) by its very nature it would weaken a structure rather that hold it together so after the main structure was smashed by the heatray the 'head' of Big Ben being devoid of the energy needed to carry that much weight hundreds of feet and having no structural integrity to hold it all together it would simply crumble or explode and gravity would pull it all down to earth. I know he didn't and neather did I. Its a passing referance to it being that superheated that it cuts through objects rather than slamming into them with force. H_C
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Post by the Donal on Jan 31, 2005 23:26:52 GMT
I think you're all wrong about the Big Ben phenomenon. Here's how it should be:
A big fullscreen explosion. Then all that remains is a pair of smoking boots. OK maybe not boots- a smouldering foundation stone or the little hand.
Or a part of the face with 'Swatch' written on it. Could be good product placement for upping the fx/editing/final mastering budget!! ;D ;D
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Post by malfunkshun on Feb 1, 2005 3:51:40 GMT
.Malf: Sorry dude, your exploding water theory just doesnt hold water (forgive the pun). The super heated steam from your trapped water expands to thousands of times the volume of the water in the stone/concrete, it suddenly needs space in which to exist so forces its way through the weaker parts of the stone/concrete shattering brick and mortar sending pieces this way and that. The weaker parts of the structure would be the morter between the bricks and the load bearing strutts made of stone. You wouldnt have that much water and what you did have probably wouldnt be noticed as it would be internal anyway but the first thing to go would the very stuff holding up your building, or in this case Big Ben. Although super heated steam can cause damage and shatter stone, it would only weaken the structure so it would not convey anywhere near the energy needed to (A) keep hundreds of tons of stone and iron (remember that in the head of Big Ben lies the machinery for the clock, huge iron cogs) and (B) by its very nature it would weaken a structure rather that hold it together so after the main structure was smashed by the heatray the 'head' of Big Ben being devoid of the energy needed to carry that much weight hundreds of feet and having no structural integrity to hold it all together it would simply crumble or explode and gravity would pull it all down to earth. ok, so i lied about leaving this alone have you ever seen footage of concrete bunkers shattering when exposed to the extreme heat of a nuclear test motile? the heat reaches the bunker before the shockwave of compressed air... radiation travels at light speed after all. just to avoid confusion as to what is actually causing the explosion... its the superheated steam trapped inside the concrete. there is enough water in the concrete to cause a very violent explosion when superheated very quickly. we're talking thousands of degrees here, after all. the heat ray itself imparts no physical force. all explosive energy would have to be a result of the extreme heat reacting with some other substance, the most likely in this case... water trapped inside the building materials. a heat source localized on one specific part of big ben, such as the heat ray, thousands of degrees, mind you... WOULD cause an instantaneous explosion of superheated vapor, which COULD propel big ben on its 'flight of fantasy' across the thames, relatively intact. even if it was mostly spreading through the weaker mortar, as you pointed out, it is doing so in a local spot, at the point of focus of the heat ray, not encompassing the entirety of big ben, so there is no reason for every bit of mortar in its entire structure to just crumble. my theory does in fact hold water, and thats not just a pun . but hey, its just a computer animation, its not reality... but i have found a theory that explains the explosion and the resulting motion of the debris, and it suits me fine. remember, my theory is based on recorded evidence of what happens when concrete and the trapped water therin is exposed to instantaneous and extremely high temperatures. it explodes, very quickly and extremely violently.
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Post by BrutalDeluxe on Feb 1, 2005 4:54:37 GMT
If memory isn't failing just yet, no where in the book does it mention that the martians blow big ben to nuts anyway. Ha ha, so true! How easily we get carried away. Perhaps TH is tipping his hat to JW's musical and having one appear over Big Ben (or blowing the tripe out of it in this case). Regardless, it makes a pretty bold statement.
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Post by Topaz on Feb 1, 2005 7:36:26 GMT
the heat ray itself imparts no physical force. all explosive energy would have to be a result of the extreme heat reacting with some other substance, the most likely in this case... water trapped inside the building materials. a heat source localized on one specific part of big ben, such as the heat ray, thousands of degrees, mind you... WOULD cause an instantaneous explosion of superheated vapor, which COULD propel big ben on its 'flight of fantasy' across the thames, relatively intact. even if it was mostly spreading through the weaker mortar, as you pointed out, it is doing so in a local spot, at the point of focus of the heat ray, not encompassing the entirety of big ben, so there is no reason for every bit of mortar in its entire structure to just crumble. While I'm with you on the concrete 'exploding' locally - that thing has to have tons of water in it after all these years of rain and damp climate - you (and the artists at Pendragon) lose me on the 'explosion flinging the top of the tower across the river' part. My take on what would happen: Heat-Ray strikes tower. Water trapped in concrete/stone turns violently to steam, combined with pure thermal shock, blows an impressively large hole in the side of the clock tower at the site and showers the ground below with rock and facing materials. (Here's where we part company) THAT side of the tower - weakened by the big new 'window' - collapses, and the structure topples over towards the side struck by the heat-ray, disintegrating into rubble and chunks of structure on its' way down. The structure of a building is designed to resist gravity and evenly distributed wind loads. It's not going to hold together if you lift it up and toss it. Besides, the exploding concrete is going to demolish the immediately surrounding structure but the force of the blast that travels inwards will dissapate into the volume of the building. There's simply nothing significant to 'push' the upper part of the building into flight in the opposite direction, since the force of the explosion will be relatively small compared to the weight of the structure above. Once you blow away one side (or corner) of a building, the structure will collapse towards the hole, as there is now nothing to support it on that side. This is how they 'collapse' buildings with conventional explosives in a desired direction. Look at the videos - when they want it to fall to one side, they blow out the bottom of the building on that side.
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Post by malfunkshun on Feb 1, 2005 9:28:19 GMT
you have a point topaz. i believe there is room in a reality ruled by chaos theory for both of our versions to be possible, depending on a lot of undefined variables.
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Post by maniacs on Feb 1, 2005 11:52:35 GMT
Your talking about something so powerful that with one hit it has split bigben in half!
As for weight, anything can be propelled like that as long as there is sufficient force behind it to do it.
In WW2 in the london harbours, SHIPS(not boats) were blown out of the water and onto the docks by the force of the explosions.
The twin towers collapsed because of the extreme heat from the plane fuels, causing the support to melt. Then the weight no longer supported fallsdown crushing the lower structures.
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Post by flynnsixtysix on Feb 1, 2005 12:39:00 GMT
ships are steel and if bounced of a bed of water one might well expect them to jump in the aiur - speedboats do it all day long. however, big Ben is made from stone - old, ancient, stone - You can make your own convincing big ben model and blow it up yourself www.modelshop.co.uk/education/big_ben.htm[/url]if your old enough you need to be over 7 to make that model so make sure you have mothers permission. Apparently there is a 14 ton bell in there...anyone care to try carrying a 14 ton bell in a crumbling brick box with no bottom ?
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Post by themotile on Feb 1, 2005 12:53:30 GMT
The heat ray is NOT a force beam, it is a focused beam of heat. The force needed to carry nearly 200 metric tones of stone and iron almost a thousand yards to the bridge is astronomical, you would need to pack Big Ben with explosives, which would totaly destroy Big Ben sending fragments in every direction. Superheated water may shatter stone but apart from that it carrys no kinetic force with which to carry the top of big ben anywhere. One of the main building materials in Big Bens construction is its weight, gravity holds most of it together, take away one wall and down she goes. The heat ray hits only one side in one spot, a nuclear blast would instantly super heat every part of the building as its hit with micro waves, gamma rays, thermal heat etc, the building would shatter and in parts vapourise, at no time would the top, weighing close to 200 tons, float away completely unscathed.
There is no excuse for the Big Ben sequence, its just very very bad.
Obviously Hines wanted it to be the 'money shot', an ID4 style center piece and without big sky scrapers Big Ben had to do but it didnt work.
The term back to the drawing board springs to mind.
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Post by flynnsixtysix on Feb 1, 2005 12:58:25 GMT
plus that ray is the same 'comedy lightning' that knocks R2D2 over in Star Wars. It has no dramatic impact unless it comes from a cattle prod and is aimed at a cute droid. Perhaps we should see the blue squiggles whizzing all over Big Ben. The hands spinning round really quickly, steam jets coming out of big Ben's ears (sound fx of a train whistle) and then the whole tower just falling over flat in one go.
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Post by maniacs on Feb 1, 2005 20:10:13 GMT
And your talking about a technology that allows a small box like object that can(from a distance as well!) turn people into fire in a second, boil a river instantly hmm whats the power source? That in itself would be an awesome capability.
Almost every science fiction film Ive ever watched will have things happening where you need to have a little tongue in cheek. Speilberg does it all the time where I think to myself - now thats just too much.
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Post by flynnsixtysix on Feb 1, 2005 20:36:40 GMT
Too much I don't mind - it's to damm little that I object too!!! and too damm little thought and effort went into that shot.
From the recently released pics of the fantastic handling machine they have proven they have talent - they have some competant experts working for them - they have the vision and the ability - so really there is no longer ANY EXCUSE for the half-baked Big Ben scene.
I now KNOW they can do BETTER!!..
Those recent pics have made me more determined to rally for a BETTER Big Ben scene.
Stop making excuses - fix it and revel in the glory of the scene.
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Post by malfunkshun on Feb 2, 2005 2:35:04 GMT
why is everybody just completely ignoring my plausable explanation as to how that scene could occur in reality? shut up me! i don't want to keep repeating myself but its hard not to when surrounded by... um, other WOTW fans ;D i understand where you're coming from flynn (repeating your message over and over, trying to hammer it into a bunch of dense skulls), and i truly am finished with this subject, let us all believe as we will still, my theory is entirely possible.
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Post by flynnsixtysix on Feb 2, 2005 9:22:28 GMT
You say your finished with the subject - but then you go and add a whole new post with an elaboration on YOUR views. hello ? double standards here maybe ? Is it just that you want to have the last word or are you actually just enjoying the banter like everyone else ? A a young boy when people told me things I didn't want to hear I used to run around the garden with my hands over my ears going 'la la la la I am not listning - I can not hear what your saying' - as an adult I've learned to stop behaving like that and listen, contemplate and respond with as fair and decent a reply as my ego will allow me...when things become 'repetative and boring' I tend to leave the room and go somewhere else being driven by my inner beast to seek out new stimulus and constant entertainment...he is a bit of an animal and does tend to get me into all kinds of scrapes!! With that in mind I'll see you in the garden... (btw I'm only having a bit of fun with you here malf - please don't take this as mean, nasty or angy - its not - if you cuold see me you'd see my smiling winking eyes and a half curled mouth as I chewed around on my soap bubble pipe)
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Post by Rob on Feb 2, 2005 13:16:08 GMT
what a strange image flyn
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Post by themotile on Feb 2, 2005 13:21:58 GMT
why is everybody just completely ignoring my plausable explanation as to how that scene could occur in reality? shut up me! i don't want to keep repeating myself but its hard not to when surrounded by... um, other WOTW fans ;D i understand where you're coming from flynn (repeating your message over and over, trying to hammer it into a bunch of dense skulls), and i truly am finished with this subject, let us all believe as we will still, my theory is entirely possible. NO MALF IT IS NOT! For the last time your talking of a PRESSURE explosion not a KINETIC explosion. Your talking of compressed superheated steam not nitro glycerin, you may damage the structure slightly but it would NOT send hundreds of tons of iron and brick INTACT through the air a thousnad yards INTACT. I would ask you malf have you ever been to Big Ben? Its big and heavy but you get the impression that its also very fragile. The haed of Big Ben where the clock is located is made of thousands of little pieces, it is NOT one huge block of polystyrene. Sorry malf your efforts to explain and ultimately justify the Big Ben scene are highy comendable but will never work as the scene is in reality very very crap, its just not plausable and with no amount of tweeking will it ever work.
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Post by Rob on Feb 2, 2005 13:26:31 GMT
I think your all gonna have to agree to disagree here
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Post by McTodd on Feb 2, 2005 14:05:03 GMT
Yeah, you're probably right...
Hey, here's a thought, maybe the shot we've seen is just a pre-vis of a shot they'll really do with a miniature? After seeing the house model, maybe they've done the Big Ben shot with another proper model? Just a thought/hope... (I say hope, because I agree that apart from the crudity of the rendering, the very concept of the current shot is bloo*dy awful! The Big Ben clock tower is iron and stone, not a bloo*dy hot air balloon!).
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