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Post by TOMAHAWK on Jan 22, 2005 16:13:39 GMT
Good points McTodd, I shall concede defeat here it's is gonna be interesting how the ship will be portrayed in the film. Nice work sir ;D
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Post by McTodd on Jan 22, 2005 16:19:39 GMT
There's no need to concede defeat, Tomahawk, it's not a points scoring match here! I actually like your idea, the 'Havock' and other early turtle-back destroyers were really fab looking ships in my opinion. I rather like the idea of one of them charging along - she'd certainly kick up a huge amount of spray (they were a good 10 knots faster than any ironclad)! As for Pendragon, who knows... However, as I've pointed out on your artillery thread, the slightly cra*ppy looking field guns in the trailer are actually not far off the slightly cra*ppy reality of 1897!
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Post by TOMAHAWK on Jan 22, 2005 16:33:54 GMT
;D ;D ;D Wasn't trying to get one over on you Mc todd, I too like the look of the TBD and IMO (mine only) would be more suitable. I think I am a little confused over What exactly the Thunderchild did ... Did it blow one up with a gun and then ram one (after being heatrayed) in the book it cut one down and then sped on taking another one in it's final explosion apols for being dim
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Post by TOMAHAWK on Jan 22, 2005 16:36:38 GMT
Also (sorry about this) wouldn't a Torp Ram be a one hit sort of suicide weapon .. ie i don't suppose it would survive after ramming another ship especially after it's torp had exploded.
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Post by McTodd on Jan 22, 2005 17:27:11 GMT
Very valid questions, especially as such close quarters weapons seem so odd to 21st century eyes.
At the time 'Polyphemus' was designed, ramming was seen as a valid tactic in naval warfare. Heavy guns were slow to operate and fairly inaccurate, so naval tacticians of the day assumed they'd be used at very close range, which gave rise to the possibility of ramming. This was strengthened, in their eyes, by the fact that ramming was used at Hampton Roads in 1862 ('Monitor' vs. 'Merrimac') and at Lissa in 1866 (when an Austrian ironclad rammed and sank the Italian flagship - the fact that the latter's engines had been crippled by shell-fire and she was dead in the water at the time was ignored!).
Then, in the 1870s, the locomotive torpedo was invented by Robert Whitehead. At first they were slow (the first time one was used in action by a British cruiser, HMS 'Shah', on a Peruvian ironclad that had turned pirate, the 'Huascar', the ironclad actually outran the torpedo! Incidentally, 'Huascar' is still in existence somewhere in South America, I forget where) and inaccurate.
However, they had improved to the point that in the 1880s, their performance was quite respectable, but no-one really knew how best to use them. Small, not very seaworthy, torpedo boats were designed - they were basically large steam launches with above water cradles, and later tubes, for firing them.
Hence 'Polyphemus' was designed as a test-bed for underwater torpedo tubes, of which she had five. The ram was actually a secondary weapon, insurance in case the experimental tubes didn't work (which, in the event, they did with great success). 'Polyphemus' was the first sea-going torpedo craft, capable of sailing in all weathers, and she was protected with a curved armour deck so she could, in theory, get in close, while the enemy's heavy guns would be too slow to react. I think the idea was that she would peel off from the fleet in an action and get close enough to the enemy to fire a spread of torpedoes.
However, in 1885, it occured to the British that she could be useful for a rather more aggressive tactic they had devised, of breaching the defences of enemy ports, which they'd be blockading in war time, and charging in, firing topedoes at the enemy's anchored fleet (the Admiralty had in mind Kronstadt, as tensions with Russia were, as ever, running high). Hence, in 1885 they built a strong harbour boom across Berehaven and 'Polyphemus' charged it at high speed, splintering it in all directions. The test was proclaimed a great success (there are photos of the event, though I've not found any on t'internet).
By then, however, the torpedo-ram idea was outmoded - new quick-firing guns meant that a ship like 'Polyphemus' would have been smothered by medium calibre HE shells before getting close enough to use her torpedoes. And as time went on, torpedoes improved more and more (actually pushing up gunnery ranges, but that's another story...) so you didn't need an armoured ship to get in so close to fire them.
So, the torpedo-ram was a pretty risky weapon. However, far more suicidal were spar torpedoes - these were used before the locomotive torpedo was invented. They consisted of a mine on the end of a long pole attached to the bow of a small vessel. You sailed up to an enemy and rammed the charge into the side; with luck, the pole was long enough that you didn't get caught in the blast!
They were popular during the US Civil War (a man-powered Confederate sub, the 'Hunley', actually sank a Union sloop, the 'Housatonic', the first submarine kill in history - 'Hunley' was caught in the blast and went down with its prey...) and I think a Russian steam launch damaged a Turkish ironclad with a spar torpedo during a spat in 1878.
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Post by malfunkshun on Jan 22, 2005 17:32:02 GMT
@mctodd - well i guess the one i bought at half price books (magnetic storm that is) had those pages removed... any chance you could scan it and post it, or pm a link to me? i'd love to see the thunderchild painting now that i know there is one edit: this is the only page that was in my copy of magnetic storm, i'm assuming it is supposed to fold out to a full scene with the thunderchild included?
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Post by McTodd on Jan 22, 2005 17:50:23 GMT
Ooh, the git!
Yes, Malfunkshun, you're right - that page is only the left-hand half - the right page has a fantastic view of a 'Majectic' lookalike exploding as the heat ray hits!
I can't use my home scanner (this pikey laptop is utter sh*ite and won't let me install new software without freezing up! I tell you, it's heading for the bin as soon as I scrape the money together to get sorted out with a PC that works) but I'll see what I can do at work next week...
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Post by McTodd on Jan 22, 2005 18:22:49 GMT
Malfunkshun, until I can sort out scanners and stuff, this fairly shoddy photo taken with my mate's digital camera will give you an impression of what you're missing... I just love that painting, the way the aft mast is collapsing is a really nice touch.
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Post by Thunder Child on Jan 22, 2005 20:33:57 GMT
WOW!!!! That picture is GREAT!! Johan
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Post by Gnorn on Jan 22, 2005 20:37:24 GMT
WOW!!!! :o :o :o That picture is GREAT!! Johan Poor Johan! ;-) -Gnorn
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Post by malfunkshun on Jan 22, 2005 20:53:59 GMT
thanks for posting that mctodd i'm still getting over the fact that somebody removed it from my copy...
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Post by Thunder Child on Jan 22, 2005 21:30:28 GMT
You can say that again Gnorn, that bloody thing is HOT!! ;D
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amber14
Full Member
Welsh Bunny
Posts: 72
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Post by amber14 on Jan 25, 2005 13:25:34 GMT
Please lets get this straight. Everyone confuses the Geoff Wayne version with the book. The Narrator is nowhere near the Thunderchild. It's his younger brother who was in London who went with the Elphinstone party to the East Coast.
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Post by I own a cylinder on Feb 2, 2005 21:29:37 GMT
It might seem a little dated now. What about one HMS Retribution as a good candidate for the Thunder Child. www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/7155/ribu.jpgIt just seems like a good half way mark between a ship like HMS Polyphemus and Deans Majestic Class Ironclad. Plus its got two funnels and upper works.
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Post by lanceradvanced on Feb 3, 2005 3:57:11 GMT
The discovery of the Hunley, quite a distance away from the wreck of the Husotonic and farther out to see has forced historians to re-look at this theory, they're now leaning toward the posiblity that the ship was damaged by gunfire, or run over or waked by union vessels responding to the sinking. She may have been fataly damage by the blast, but evidently went down much later than most thought.
In other Civil war Events, the Confederate Ram "Albermale" was sunk by torpedo launch (the only confederate ironclad actually sunk, all the others apparenly surrendered or were scuttled by their crews) in a rather daring rade, complicated by the log boom around the vessel's mooring.
Several other of the Confederate Ironclad rams were also fitted with spar torpedos, and they were also put to use on "Davids" small, torpedo shaped, almost submerged steam boats.
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