|
Post by Bayne on May 27, 2004 20:54:32 GMT
[glow=red,2,300]When asked why the USA was attacked in 11 Sep. many people said that it was because of Americas freedom, so now to fix this it seems people are getting rid of as much of that freedom as possible.
Certainly the United States had a duty and a responsibility to retaliate after the S11 attacks, and the Taliban really needed to be brought to heel. Sure Saddam's regime was hideous and evil, but I don't see why the invasion of Iraq took place when the problem in Afghanistan is obviously still unfinished. While Saddams regime was genocidal and mercilessly crushed all opposition, it still managed to reach a higher level of religious freedom and gender equality than much of the Arab world, freedom and equality thaty may not be protected under the new government.
I also don't see how a war on terror can be won by any weapon other than propaganda. As long as others take up the cause there can never be victory only more and more restrictive, costly and paranoid defense. Terrorism is like the Hydra, it doesn't matter how many heads you cut off, more will spring forth (the analogy is particularly apt as the act of severing heads doubles the number of heads to sever). You need to burn the stumps as you sever the heads, and the fire in this circumstance won't be miliatary or economic, it must be political, philosophical and educational.
Because of this the US forces needed to be on their best possible behaviour, they needed to be rightous in their acts as much as their cause. Those photographs and the reports of mistreatment in other facilities then might perhaps be the greatest defeat possible in the war on terror.
As regards hazing.... a slow and painful murder may be worse that a quick one, but it is nonetheless still murder. Sure Saddams regime may have done worse tortures, but torture is still torture. Considering the growing epidemic of school bullying in Australia, I can assure you there is nothing minor about such things... It has destroyed minds and destroyed lives, it is a major part of the drug problem, of crime, of suicide especially rural male youth suicide.
"Your drop of light, like tears in the night, I know who you are, No need to hide, I'll find you, Your husband as well, your children too, There's no hid-ing from my E-lec-tron-ic Eye, So babies, prepare yourselves to die." Valentines Day by Immaculata [/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Killraven on May 27, 2004 21:46:11 GMT
Fine choice of words, Bayne. Any comments I've ever made relating to the Iraq situation (which still to me seems a million miles away from 9/11 and the war on terrorism - terrorism has no nationality) have only been to put forward my views that sickeningly pointless violence and humiliation is not a solution. For anyone to say the recent actions of US troops (arguably receiving orders from higher up, but we'll leave that discussion until categoric proof is unearthed) is acceptable because its not as bad as what Saddam did to his own people, is missing the point. You cannot justify one set of actions with the defence they are not as bad as another. Instead, one should not lower ones civility to that level, even for a second. These people should not just be cashiered but be given a taste of their own medicine (or maybe not, as that would be sinking to their level! ) Similarly, by saying the Bush administration isn't as bad as the Nazis also misses the point. It is the perceived attitude and god-like arrogance where the similarity lies, not in mass acts of violation (by the Nazis). The US wields the most power in the world and it must be consistent in that wielding. It should be concentrating on putting more pressure on Israel to cease its military infractions in Palestine, and ensure that the coalition actually does pull out politically from Iraq on 30th June and let the administration fend for itself. This would greatly improve the hugely damaged credibility of the western superpowers in the Arab World.
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on May 29, 2004 3:48:17 GMT
The comparisons between the US and Nazi Germany are disturbing. I put America at about 1934-36, after the Reichstag fire (9-11) and the "Decree for the Protection of Nation and State" (Patriot 1). The beginning of aggressive war, concentration camps, the militarisation of society and a radical national ideology (Neo-Con). Cheny has already said this war could go on for fifty years (or should that be one thousand?). Like the Nazis, the US, along with Israel, have thrown all international agreements away because they can’t achieve their aims legally. Every one said we should have stopped the Nazi's during the 30's, now’s our chance.
The American people need to realise that they are the targets of the War of Terror, but not how they think. Under the pretext of fighting "terrorism", the US citizen is and will be asked to forgo their civil liberties in the name of security. Here is the real target of US policy, keeping down the only people who can frustrate their aims. The terrorists can't stop America, but as was shown during the 60's when they last tried this, the people can. They hope that now the Baby Boomers are retiring, they can try it again on the next generation. Not on my watch.
For me, I wont be free until there is an Israeli and Palestinian flag flying in Jerusalem. On that day, I'll know Western power has retreated enough for justice to return. Then the War of Terror will be over.
Earthrise
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on May 30, 2004 23:55:46 GMT
I'm not worried about Islamic fascism. You need to put their current predicament into historical perspective. For over one hundred years, the West has denied them their oily birthright, brutally carving up their nations and imposing the Crusader Kingdom of Israel as the ultimate wedge. The Arab civilisation has been forced back on traditional lifestyles to protect themselves from being overwhelmed. We were every bit as uncivilised a few hundred years ago, their traditions and ours bear striking similarities. Given the room and freedom to develop, I have every faith in Islamic societies coming good. The Enlightenment project cannot be stopped, look at the young people in Iran. Freedom and democracy will prevail.
Having said that I am not fundamentally against our past policy in Arabia. Imagine at the turn of the century the camel-riding goat herders united and gained control of most of the world's oil. Would they have used their power any more responsibly than the US? Power is the problem, like the Ring, it corrupts whoever tries to wield it. I'm relatively happy with the West's actions in Arabia, until 1947 when the UN was enacted; International law must prevail. But it all went south in 1967 when Israel went berserk and launched a Nazi-like drive for Greater Israel. Israel's crimes are the originator of this War of Terror. They have been on the justifiable end of an Islamic irregular war and all they have done is successfully export that struggle to the whole world.
Once there is a Palestinian state encompassing all of their stolen land with a shared Jerusalem, Israel's problems may not be over. But ours will be. They have a reckoning coming their way, and all their actions over the last Intifada have done is condemn their children and grandchildren to years of retribution. My children will not pay for Israeli crimes. And if I were a Yank, I'd be making damn sure no more of my children die to protect that failed, nationalist, neo-fascist throwback to the 19th century.
Assuming the US doesn't go down the same path.
Earthrise
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on Jun 3, 2004 1:58:28 GMT
Mahatma Gandhi:
You assist an evil system most effectively by obeying its orders and decrees. An evil system never deserves such allegiance. Allegiance to it means partaking of the evil. A good person will resist an evil system with his or her whole soul.
George Orwell:
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
The Beatitudes
Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them saying:
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Maybe Bush and the Christian Right all fell asleep during this sermon. I'm getting sick of all the lies our leaders are telling us to cover their crimes. Let these great men do the talking.
Earthrise.
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on Jun 4, 2004 0:29:47 GMT
"even if you choose to ignore the elephant in the sitting room"
The only elephant I worry about is the Republican one trampling the world ;-)
Enough about America when Australia is fast also becoming a fascist state. This current conservative government of eight years has been the worst in Australia's history. Corrupt Ministers, misleading the public, aggressive foreign invasions and now covering up their knowledge of torture in Iraq.
Our military is taking the fall, the "dept didn't advise the Minister", crap! Australian troops are responsible by law for POWs captured and handed over for detainment; of course they knew. First it was our intelligence services that had come under political control, now the military. Our media is owned by the same sycophantic lot as most of yours, no freedom of the press here either. Our Judiciary is still relatively free, at least.
But now we are having our laws changed so people accused of terrorism are denied bail. This basic right to be considered for bail by everyone is and should be in a Judges hand, not politicians. Because if this continues, anyone critical of the government can be labelled a "terrorist" and disappear into a black hole.
Of course I'm worried about that, it could be me one day if I fail to stop it. When you have conservatives saying "drop the deadly conciliatory tone that actually empowers the terrorists", you can see how close we really are.
Earthrise.
|
|
|
Post by Killraven on Jun 4, 2004 11:34:38 GMT
Earthrise, the situation in Australia is mirrored by that in the UK, and, I suspect, in the US too. It'll all be considered when we go to the polls..
|
|
|
Post by Tripod on Jun 4, 2004 13:42:07 GMT
Serious subject. With no offence against our American friends on this board!!! I think that Bush should stop with his War Campaignes. The Americans we're not half way done in Afganistan while Bush wanted to attack Iraq. He's to personal in this I think Bush just wants to complete his father's work. This is proving to be fatal to the current American President. The only thing I can say is: It isn't going good with the world. People are losing their personality in the mobs and are becoming more violent every day. The best defence against this is (I think) stay yourself and respect others in their visions and opinions. But yet there are things wich we can't do anything about like the things that the goverment decide.
Tripod
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on Jun 6, 2004 14:20:42 GMT
Agreed JJ, This is a critical year for all of us. Howard and Bush are up for re-election and Blair early next year. The cards are on the table now, people voting for the war criminals know what they are getting. If any of these monsters gets re-elected (legitimately), we will deserve what we get.
I think all three will fall, though in the US, Kerry isn't much better. I don't know much about British politics, but I'd say the Conservatives would support the war. Which makes Blair's treachery so much worse, he's the only progressive among the war criminals. To the Poms, what are the Liberal Democrats like and are they an alternative? Is there a Greens party in Britian?
Earthrise
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on Jun 7, 2004 1:54:49 GMT
Thanks for the opportunity, Charles.
To me, these "terrorists" are common criminals. Whether you excuse violence for financial, theological, revenge or plain boredom, the results are the same. Law enforcement and international agreements typified in the past by Interpol are the best we can do. If it becomes obvious to the world that a particular state has been involved in training and supporting terrorism in other countries, then we should take action. The US, through the CIA, has been doing this for years against any country showing the disrespect to act independently or trying to implement real democracy.
The only danger Islamic terrorists pose is if they grow into a wide-spread international resistance movement. What I would like to hear is conservatives acknowledge that US foreign policy creates resentment and anger amongst the millions who suffer from it. These handful of Islamic criminals will be caught eventually, unless we keep making new ones via US atrocities. As the Maoists say, insurgents live in a pool of public support. Drain the pond and pick up the exposed fishies.
But as I’ve said, the whole "terrorist" thing stinks, quite frankly. How many of you get the feeling the US is creating terrorists, almost on purpose. It needs Arabic terrorism to steal tax-payer funds to pump up the Military-Industrial complex (Terrorism is the new Communism), at the same time denying social services like healthcare, social security and infrastructure.. Build schools in Bagdhad, but not Ohio. A "terrorist" has been defined by US policy makers as anyone who opposes to US government. The main target is you and me.
If there is anyone left in Cyberspace who doesn't know why the US is doing these evil acts, read on. The US has peaked (early 70's) and will decline as percentage of the world's economy. Naturally, China, India and Europe will rise, restoring the balance lost after WWII. China will be the sole superpower, maybe in the lifetime of some of us. 1.6 billion people entering the middle-class will create a massive demand for oil to fuel cars and industry. The US, by controlling the Middle East, controls the price and supply of oil. Thus controls Europe and China, Japan and most of the world. The "New American Century", as the neo cons espouse.
Force Israel to adhere to international law and return the land they stole. Get the US out of Arabia. Pour investment into alternative energy (saving the Earth at the same time) to lessen the hold of oil. Accept the rise of China. Accept the end of the American Century. Allow democracy to finally be realised, across the whole world. There will be more attacks on Western soil, justice will be done. And they will continue until we self-regulate and atone for our crimes. A generous rebuilding of Arabia (after we've left) would be a start. Then let the Arabs focus their anger on their leaders for holding them down, for us.
"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead..." Thomas Jefferson
|
|
|
Post by DarkElastic on Jun 8, 2004 9:27:05 GMT
I just want to say a few things.
1) How dare bush relate this war on terror with the D-Day landings, we were fighting for our freedom against the well kitted, well disciplined army of the Nazis, not terrorists that we mostly have pinned back in their own country. Millions of people (Canadian, New Zealanders, British, American, South African, etc.) died through WW2 against a strong army, to who were on par/slightly ahead in their technology of war fare and weaponry. Not some Iraqi with Old Russian weapons.
2) How many people on here are Star Trek fans? I am quite a big ST fan and would like our Civilisations to coincide and grow together in peace, but, it wont happen for a long time, as all our leaders are money hungry bastardos with only one agenda on their mind - themselves and how rich they can get.
3) New song by Morrissey called - Irish blood, English Heart and in it he talks about ridding my country of both Labour and Conservatives. Might not be a bad idea, a dictator wouldn't do a worse job at fooking up this country.
4) I have just finished my exams for another year - hurrah - and now have 4 months off University. I have to work five days now, but I don’t mind, it means my free time is truly mine.
5) European Championships start on Saturday the 12th of June. Can't wait. Just for you Americans I will explain: This Championship is REAL Football, not the stuff that involves throwing a weird looking rugby ball and only kicking it 10% of the game. This game is where you kick a round ball for 90% of the game. I will add - the greatest game created by man!!!
|
|
|
Post by DarkElastic on Jun 8, 2004 13:16:19 GMT
In a country that has been taken over by obesity, I quite expected that answer from you. You see the reason kids should run around a football field kicking a ball, or doing any other sport for that matter, is to keep fit. I think the adults of America should do as the kids do and play some sports. Your American culture has forced its way into my country making obesity a problem here also... Damn you Macdonalds.
|
|
|
Post by DarkElastic on Jun 8, 2004 14:49:07 GMT
Nothing serious coming from me . I'm in these conversations for the fun of it ;D.
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on Jun 11, 2004 0:00:28 GMT
I’m glad you used the moneychangers in the temple, it is one on my favourites. Of course in the modern world, the moneychangers are the Corporate class and the Temple the Government. Christ used force to remove the moneychangers, are you advocating revolution?
That is the scary thing, Charles, is that I don't have to go back hundreds of years to find barbarism in Christ's name. The US President and his supporters in the loony Christian Right are destroying Iraq, Palestine and world peace rushing towards their long-awaited Armageddon. No need to worry about the environment or third-world resentment, it will all be over soon. How many hundreds of years has that excuse been used to justify the worst crimes. The US is the last home of Christian Fundamentalism, much scarier than Islamic fundamentalism, as it is backed by the most powerful state ever seen. Caesar Bush is the current Anti-Christ; if Christ is the bringer of world peace, Bush is his direct opponent.
American's thrive on competition, please, pure rhetoric. Maybe on the sport's field but America fixes the pack in every geo-political game it plays. "Free" trade is forced on poor countries, stripping their social services and compelling them to grow flowers for America rather than food for their table. The IMF and World Bank are part of the system to retain US dominance and the wealth of the wealthy. Once the US loses hegemony, we'll see how they bleat about unfair competition. Easy to compete from a position of superior strength.
Agreeing that US policy is unfair and discriminatory is vital to explaining why there is terrorism in the world. Scrap this fantasy that they hate our freedoms, they hate that we have taken their freedom. Why the US conservatives never acknowledge that their policies are unjust is that it gives their opponents the moral right to resist. And as the US uses extreme force to achieve its policy aims, this justifies retaliation in kind. The US wants to maintain her ill-begotten gain and deny others the right to self-defence. But when another country does anger the US, the CIA is set upon them creating poverty and political upheaval. Check the history books, the US hates freedom and democracy, in others.
"But it should be a century where all people are free to live up to their potential or as they choose and not dragged down by oppressive or special interest oriented governments looking out for 'their best interests.'"
You have perfectly described your own government; oppressive to the world and run by the special interests of the Corporate class. Charles, I get the feeling you and I don't differ as much as we think. I am against big government too, as it is a power structure lying around waiting to be stolen and abused. Grassroots democracy, where every interested citizen engages in the political process at their local level and in their own special interest groups, will lead to a more informed and enlightened citizen better able to chose a government "for the people and by the people". From someone I suspect does love democracy, you can't be happy with the fascist direction yours and my governments are taking. I understand your patriotism, but your priority must be the truth. Otherwise we run the risk of turning our backs while Holocausts take place. It happened and could easily happen again; some good honest people administered the death camps in Germany and went home to their wife and kids every night. How they slept, I don't know.
Rather than being just an American, why not be human too.
Earthrise
|
|
|
Post by Bayne on Jun 13, 2004 23:20:36 GMT
[glow=red,2,300]Considering the number of American missionaries I've conversed and argued with, I can tell you that the above statement is most terribly wrong! Whether it's the Mormons who knock on my door fairly regularly, or those who work out at the 'silver city' the former catholic mission on the edge of town, the Featherfeet who bought up the plaza in town and started giving orders on what could and could not be sold (or played on the speaker system) in the stores there, or those heading to PNG that told me with pride how they were systematically destroying indiginous beliefs and traditions before the anthroplogists had a chance to catalogue them.
All Americans may not want to change people or cultures, but enough with large financial backing are very much doing so right now.
And yes, you are right, people are people. People get bored with politics, people overlook consequences, people are swayed by advertising...
As for productivity... it's hard to compete on an unlevel playing field.. ask any corner store owner in town what they think about the bulk-buying power of supermarkets. A third Supermarket moved into town last year and a third of the corner stores were out of business within three months. They just couldn't compete....
The current 'free trade agreement' seems to give America immediate access to most of our markets. Sure our PBS Medicine scheme causes some trouble for competition (in that the Gov buys the product and then subsidises it to consumers) still the Government pays full price. Still many of the reciprocal open access to American markets will not take place for ten years. By which time, demographics will ensure that there will be hardly a farmer left in this country.[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Jun 14, 2004 0:04:43 GMT
There is an exception to every rule, and if missionaries are what springs to mind as the embodiment of American imperialism, I have to ask, why on earth are you complaining? If you don't like 'em, don't answer the door -- or here's a novel idea; just walk away.
Your productivity example has its American example in Walmart. People in small town America bitched long and loud about how Walmart destroyed what was "small-town America"...and then went to Walmart to do their shopping themselves. Now Germany's Aldi is planning on going after the American market with the same strategy Walmart used...only Aldi has been doing it longer (and they've been here years already). It reminds me of the Americans who used to bitch about foreign cars and trade union thugs who hassled me about my Japanese car. I had to remind them it was assembled in Texas by a union man to get them to shut up.
'Tis indisputable: competition is good for the consumer.
Let America have access to your markets; who cares? If you don't like us, don't buy our products. Its your big chance to send the message you want to send so badly! But be sure to explain to your neighbors who might be employed by those companies why you're not buying from them and want to put them out of business.
You all act like its only America that forces its way into foreign markets. Give me a break. And give yourselves a break. A little common sense and spending discipline would serve you well - as well as keep the bloody bureaucrats' noses out of stuff that should be your business and your business alone. Oh, and by the way, its not 'the government' that is buying your PBS medication - ...its your tax money they're using, so in reality you're buying it. But at least the Australian (and world) market is getting it at a discount compared to Americans - who they mysteriously think can afford to pay the true full price.
Its ugly, but evolution has its counter part in the business world. Companies best suited to their ever-changing environment will survive. And that's the way it should be. Economic "level playing fields" are theoretical in any dynamic economy precisely because there will never be agreement as to what 'it' really means - let alone how 'it' can be reached. The very statement is code used by socialists and militant environmentalists that really means 'state controlled monopolies in a closed and stagnant economy.'
Farming subsidies; don't get me started on those...living here in the midwest and knowing how our government pays farmers NOT to farm lest we have too much and it force down prices. But I see their point: We could be feeding the world, but then we'd be accused of foodstuff imperialism.
|
|
|
Post by Earthrise on Jun 20, 2004 10:13:33 GMT
"you, as an anti-American, anti-globalist" hmmm, spraying it around a little, I'm neither. Though I am an opponent of US imperialism. And the next lot who think they can rule the world.
You are a globalist only under US domination and for US benefit. Globalisation is not the victory of US companies over human values, it is the tearing down of national boundaries to build a global community. The World Republic and the idea of international citizenry is the future, not international fascism under the Stars and Bars. A truly democratic UN run by the People of the world is the best hope we have of eliminating war and introducing justice to world affairs.
Charles, you are one of the few left in the world who still believes the Anglos want freedom and democracy in Iraq. Freedom would entail the removal of occupation forces and the democratic introduction of an Islamic state. The US will not allow that, they didn't go all the way there to hand the oil and bases back to the Iraqis. Are you really so naive as to believe the US wont station troops in Iraq for the long term, that moving air and land bases from Saudi Arabia to Iraq wasn't a major reason for the war. Watch the US carve off the oil rich eastern provinces of Saudi Arabia if Bush is re-elected, under the cover of protecting world supply from the insurrection being waged there. Has anyone else noticed the heat being placed on Syria and Iran recently, its not over yet people.
"'Tis indisputable: competition is good for the consumer."
But what about society? What about human dignity and respect? Competition narrows the field, ultimately ending up in the psuedo-struggle between two giants, or the victory of a monopoly like Microsoft. Competition needs to be protected, not left up to the brutal winds of trade liberalisation and "free" market forces. Evolution is the force that shapes nature; society and culture shape civilisation. All's fair in business flies in the face of community values and norms of fairness and morality. If you think our societies should be run by the survival of the fittest, you better brush off your copy of Mein Kampf.
Your opinion would carry more weight if you accepted the failures of the Bush administration instead of blindly excusing their barbarity. Being a conservative doesn't make you a fascist. If prominent Republicans, ex generals and career diplomats can recently call for the removal of the most dangerous president in the history of the Republic, why can't you?
Earthrise.
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Jun 21, 2004 16:31:49 GMT
I never said that society SHOULD be left to 'survival of the fittest,' rather that it simply is - more often than not... and no matter how indignant you are about it. Economies, cultures (ie societies) evolve; desirable things/traits/characteristics (though I'm attempting no correlation with their morality or practicality!) appear, disappear, reinvent themselves and reappear (ie girl/boy bands, get rich quick schemes, religious faiths, etc) according to market or demographic trends. Its a different sort of evolution from the biological - mainly in that it can be controlled by man to a greater degree, but an evolution all the same. Unfortunately the system you seek for a perfect and fair system of societal, business and cultural protection and regulation - is not possible with humans in charge, even if it were you designing the system.
I don't see why you can't admit that your idea of "fairness" in the world is not to raise everyone to the level (and let's just define that level as being a standard of living equal to the US or northern Europe/Australia), but to vengefully BRING DOWN the USA ALONE to a more 'primitive' standard of living that only you can decide.
I don't know what "failures" you would like me to assign to Bush. I supported former President Clinton and his administration when they said the VERY SAME THINGS Bush has said about Saddam, UBL, and the middle east in general (albeit with less conviction and gravitas), hence Clinton's recent sheepish confirmation of Bush's policies. I was disappointed Clinton lacked the guts to act on his stated beliefs and convictions (because otherwise I found him to be a rather likeable guy), but that's what you get when you have someone who governs solely by consensus.
As I've said before, leadership sometimes requires making unpopular decisions, and a person's ability to do this tells us much about that person's character. I've no doubt that when all this is through and Bush is asked about his biggest disappointments and failures in office, he'll be as candid as Clinton was the other night when he listed his regrets regarding the Palestine and middle east. Of course he then went on to place the blame on Arafat (but in this, too, Clinton is quite right). Its funny to me how conveniently Bush-haters forgive and forget Bill Clinton's erroneous decisions and beliefs when it suits them.
Or maybe you just weren't paying attention back then to know that some of those who called for Bush's defeat were those whose inaction during their tenure helped lay the groundwork for the mess we have today. "Career diplomat," as trustworthy as a career politician. But its a common trait amongst politicians, most especially the left; denounce, deride, decry in the "strongest possible terms," then sit back and say you've accomplished something.
I know you're not a Wellsian of any stripe and that it must burn you that he saw the 'Atlantic Community' as that which should lead the post-war world towards unity, but really, your negative and objectivist attitude (in the Randian sense) against the west is what I find most tragic and shortsighted in this entire conversation. We might never agree here, but despite how you excuse their barbarism with the touchy-feely "Freedom Fighter" tag, you'd better hope the Islamofascists don't succeed in their aims anywhere else.
|
|
|
Post by Killraven on Jun 21, 2004 16:37:33 GMT
But its a common trait amongst politicians, most especially the left; denounce, deride, decry in the "strongest possible terms," then sit back and say you've accomplished something. Er, I think Charles that Earthrise was referring to some right wing politicians who served under Bush Snr. A kind of 'smack the naughty child' exercise perhaps??
|
|
|
Post by Charles on Jun 21, 2004 16:44:06 GMT
I know exactly who he meant, but it doesn't matter. Both sides can be equally guilty of trying to cover their inactive backsides.
|
|