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Post by Commandingtripod on Jun 23, 2006 9:33:29 GMT
Does anyone know what chapter the Channel Fleet took on the Martian forces (Supposing they did)?
I've been looking around and a few web sites have talked about this battle but I dont know..........is it even in the book?
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Post by mctoddridesagain on Jun 23, 2006 12:58:47 GMT
No, whatever websites you're looking at are assuming there was a battle with the Channel Fleet, but Wells gives no more information other than what's at the end of the Thunder Child chapter (I don't think a battle did take place as he refers to the ships visible in the distance turning away and sailing back out to sea before they got too close to shore).
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Post by Commandingtripod on Jun 23, 2006 13:10:51 GMT
Ah ok thanks. The web sites I was looking at were mainly talking about the Martian flying machine raining down canisters of black smoke onto the warships. I wondered about that little one myself.
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Post by Luperis on Jun 23, 2006 18:51:57 GMT
There definately isn't a chapter with flying machines vs warships, so where they got that one from is a mystery. Still, you have to wonder what it was that they were reading
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Post by mctoddridesagain on Jun 23, 2006 20:57:01 GMT
They were probably talking about fan fiction, or game scenarios or somesuch - but definitely not the novel. Here are the only mentions of the Channel Fleet ( www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/warworlds/b1c17.html): [Thunder Child] was the only warship in sight, but far away to the right over the smooth surface of the sea--for that day there was a dead calm--lay a serpent of black smoke to mark the next ironclads of the Channel Fleet, which hovered in an extended line, steam up and ready for action, across the Thames estuary during the course of the Martian conquest, vigilant and yet powerless to prevent it.Later... [After the battle] nothing of the Thunder Child could be made out, nor could the third Martian be seen. But the ironclads to seaward were now quite close and standing in towards shore past the steamboat.
The little vessel continued to beat its way seaward, and the ironclads receded slowly towards the coast, which was hidden still by a marbled bank of vapour, part steam, part black gas, eddying and combining in the strangest way. The fleet of refugees was scattering to the northeast; several smacks were sailing between the ironclads and the steamboat. After a time, and before they reached the sinking cloud bank, the warships turned northward, and then abruptly went about and passed into the thickening haze of evening southward. The coast grew faint, and at last indistinguishable amid the low banks of clouds that were gathering about the sinking sun.The warships (of the Channel Fleet) sailed north, then 'abruptly went about' (i.e. turned 180 degrees) and sailed south. It's possible that some have mistaken the next paragraph as referring to a battle between the Martians and the Channel Fleet: Then suddenly out of the golden haze of the sunset came the vibration of guns, and a form of black shadows moving. Everyone struggled to the rail of the steamer and peered into the blinding furnace of the west, but nothing was to be distinguished clearly. A mass of smoke rose slanting and barred the face of the sun. The steamboat throbbed on its way through an interminable suspense.However, as the paddle steamer is sailing east, towards the Continent, and the sights and sounds of battle are in the west (towards the setting sun), it's clear that the refugees must be hearing fighting on land (not so fanciful, as some of the worst artillery barrages in France during the Great war could be heard faintly at dead of night in London).
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Post by Commandingtripod on Jun 24, 2006 3:40:49 GMT
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Post by mctoddridesagain on Jun 24, 2006 10:09:03 GMT
Ah, fan writing. Perfectly valid in its own way, but it's not the novel.
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Post by Commandingtripod on Jun 24, 2006 10:15:45 GMT
Ah ok.
Thanks Mctodd. ;D
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Post by Stewymartian on Jun 24, 2006 19:20:01 GMT
The flying machine is mentioned at the end of the thunder child chapter. The narrators brother describes seeing it rushing across the sky, ending book one with the phrase ' and as it flew it rained darkness across the land' (or something close to that anyway). I suppose the writer of this battle with the channel fleet may have put this together with the description of battle that mctoddridesagain quoted and came up with idea of a big naval battle involving the flying machine.
However I'm fairly sure that Wells was refering to actions taking place on land and not out to sea. Personally I think Wells was giving the readers a vivid picture of the hopeless situation the Brother was leaving behind and which our main character, the narrator, is still caught up in.
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Post by Lensman on Jul 1, 2006 4:02:42 GMT
I don't think the Black Smoke would be an effective weapon against a large warship. Closing the watertight doors would keep the smoke out. A cannister dropped on a ship might just bounce off and go into the water-- and as I recall, that's exactly what happened once in Wells' novel. If the cannister sinks in water, it becomes harmless, since water neutralizes the poisonous qualities of Black Smoke. Plus, if the ships have fire-fighting hoses as they did in WW II, it would be natural for them to turn a stream of water on a smoking cannister, and that would neutralize a lot of the smoke if not all of it. Also, a stream of water might be able to simply wash the cannister over the side.
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Post by Commandingtripod on Jul 1, 2006 4:11:34 GMT
Yes.
I think that in the book, a fighting machine takes aim at Thunderchild and fires a black smoke canister which harmlessly bounces off its armored hull and falls into the water, spilling the smoke harmlessly around.
But your right though, the battle could not have been won by use of black smoke alone, the flying machine would have had to use a heat ray (If it had one) along with the fighting machines to destroy the warships.
EDIT - Here we go:
Book 1, Chapter 17, ThunderChild
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Post by mctoddridesagain on Jul 2, 2006 19:07:06 GMT
I don't think the Black Smoke would be an effective weapon against a large warship. Closing the watertight doors would keep the smoke out... Plus, if the ships have fire-fighting hoses as they did in WW II, it would be natural for them to turn a stream of water on a smoking cannister, and that would neutralize a lot of the smoke if not all of it. However, you'd be surprised at how many openings Victorian warships had - a lot. The watertight doors only apply to the inside of the hull (mainly below the armoured deck too, so generally the lower part of the hull at that). Above deck, the bridge was totally open; the conning tower, though heavily armoured, had large viewing slits with no means of closing them; the turrets had large gunports, with no means of closing them, and also often had openings in the top with only canvas covers (and barbette ships had totally open arrangements); the gun-decks for the secondaries were open, with large gunports and large openings above. The reason there were so many openings above various areas was because at the short ranges they were expected to fight at that time, shell trajectories were virtually flat - there was no plunging fire envisaged, hence no need to protect against it. As for firefighting arrangements, they were very primitive compared to WW2. A ship in the open, such as the Thunder Child, moving at high speed would have steamed free of one or two black smoke canisters I agree (as happened), but if, say, the Martians laid down a massive barrage of black smoke covering a few square miles on a concentration of warships, the latter would have been f*cked... With their watertight doors and all other doors and portholes shut, the engine room crews would have been okay, but all commanding officers, helmsmen and gunners would have been dead within, well, however long it took for the black smoke to kill...
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Post by Lensman on Jul 4, 2006 7:44:26 GMT
Thanks McTodd. I remember reading of the barbette turret design, and didn't remember when that went out of fashion.
Still, I'm not sure how the Tripods would lay down a barrier of Black Smoke at sea. Wouldn't the canisters simply sink and the smoke be neutralized? The Martians would have to put each canister on a raft. And given their quite obvious confusion about ships and fighting at sea, I seriously question they'd think of such a thing.
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Post by mctoddridesagain on Jul 4, 2006 9:30:12 GMT
Wouldn't the canisters simply sink and the smoke be neutralized? Hmm, that's a point... I'm not sure, I sort of get the impression the black smoke was slightly heavier than air, so it would 'pile up' and then sink and slowly dissipate (remember, there's that line about them looking like 'black kopjes' www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/warworlds/b1c15.html). I still reckon a heavy barrage could smother a fleet or squadron of warships. However, by far the easiest way to deal with warships would be simply to ignore them - beyond being able to shell a few miles inland, there's nothing else they could do to affect the invaders directly.
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Post by Thunder Child on Jul 5, 2006 12:42:09 GMT
The Black Smoke was, indeed, heavier than air:
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