What carries the heat-ray?

[Winky]

A kind of arm carried a complicated metallic case, about which green flashes scintillated, and out of the funnel of this there smoked the Heat-Ray. [33]

I always assumed that a tentacle from under the body of the tripod carried the heat ray. But Wells here describes this arm. I'm not sure but I don't think he ever says how they carried the tubes for the black smoke, just that they carried them.

Any thoughts?

[Topaz]

It's an interesting question, as all the renderings I can recall have the artist either putting the heat-ray generator in the grip of a tentacle (despite what Wells says in the passage you quote) or nearly neglect the tentacles altogether in favor of mechanical arms. The latter also goes against the text, since the 'arm' is only mentioned once or twice, with the tentacles mentioned prominantly in several locations. That leads me to believe that Wells felt that they were a dominant feature of the machine as he visualized it. I'm not saying the arm(s) were inconsequential, as on one occasion the 'generator of the heat-ray was raised on high' or something to that effect.

That's one of the difficult things about rendering the Fighting Machines - seemingly inconsequential details are 'tossed out' throughout the text, and yet they radically change the description of the machine.

[BrutalDeluxe]

I've always thought it was held in one of the tentacles that rattles around the body of the fighting machine. It would make it easy to aim the heat ray that way. Very reminiscent of the way we wield a handgun. Just the way Wells describes "as it advanced it swung
loose what must have been the generator of the Heat-Ray" it implies a fair amount of flexibility - to me anyway.
Similarly the tentacles could be used to curl around the tube launcher that fired the black smoke canisters.

[twistedrabbit]

I imagined a simple arm holding the heatray, but surrounded by a mass of the tentacles...intertwined with it...maybe the arm was used to lift the heavy heat ray up and connect "wiring." The tentacles would be ideal for moving and aiming the heatray...sort of how in the 'Aliens' movie the Marines had those "camera arm" machine guns attatched to their waists....the tentacles being the human arms holding the gun. Hm?

[lanceradvanced]

I used a kind of scorpion tail like arm in my design, mounted on the top of the hood, with the heatray resting in a socket atop the hood when not in use.
The artists at gold rush games, did something similar with an arm that was mounted on the -bottom- of the body, and swung behind and over the top. The Gobble illustrations show the ray hung from cables from a davit like affair, to the side of the machine, the smoke tubes mounted in the same way but on a diffrent strut.

[Gerkinman]

i kinda thought he just use the terms arms occasionally becaus people get sick of reading tentacles, after all they are both limbs, so when he used both expressions i assumed he was just refering to a tentacle liek arm.

[Lensman]

I've always assumed the arm is an articulated rigid arm, not a tentacle. IMHO it is wrong to depict the legs as flexible, as has been done by many artists. Tentacles, being flexible, have little compression strength -- they can't prop up heavy weights. A large, massive tentacle could certainly pick up something relatively small in comparison -- like a person -- but they could not hold up the weight of the entire Tripod.

Since tentacles are flexible, anything held at a distance from the "body" of the Tripod would tend to wobble. I'd think that wouldn't be good for aiming. Having the heat ray projector fixed to a rigid arm would allow for much more precise control.

Placing the arm either above or below the main body of the Tripod would not be the best solution. The heat ray is a tripod's main weapon, and it needs to be placed where it will give maximum flexibility in aiming, just like the placement of a main gun on a warship. Attaching the arm to the side of the Tripod would allow the operator to either elevate or lower it as needed. And in fact I've seen a couple of book covers which show the heat ray projector at the end of an articulated arm attached to the side of the Tripod.

I've assumed the black smoke tubes, which were not attached to the Tripods, were carried in the Tripods' tentacles. As has been pointed out in this thread, Wells repeatedly mentions tentacles, so presumably a Tripod has a lot more of those than articulated, rigid arms. Since Black Smoke spreads out to cover a large area, precise aim isn't as important.

OTOH the discharge of a Black Smoke tube is described as "a heavy report that made the ground heave" (Book one, Chapter 15). That suggests something heavier than I was thinking, so perhaps it would require rigid arms to lift it up. If I were an artist, tho, I'd show the Tripod cradling it in its tentacles.

[BrutalDeluxe]

Lensman said:

A large, massive tentacle could certainly pick up something relatively small in comparison .

I'm sure a giant squid would disagree with you there Lensman ;D

In some illustrations, as would also appear with Tim Hines' tripods, the tentacles are actually made from metal with a series of points of articulation. This would give them both the necessary strength and flexibility to wield the heat ray accuratly. Also when the Narrator is trapped in the coal cellar the tentacle that searches for him is described as making a metallic jingling noise like a ring of keys.

[Lensman]

BrutalDeluxe said:

I'm sure a giant squid would disagree with you there Lensman ;D

In some illustrations, as would also appear with Tim Hines' tripods, the tentacles are actually made from metal with a series of points of articulation. This would give them both the necessary strength and flexibility to wield the heat ray accuratly. Also when the Narrator is trapped in the coal cellar the tentacle that searches for him is described as making a metallic jingling noise like a ring of keys.

I don't get your point(s). I see you were making a joke about giant squids; were you trying to make a point also? If the legends of kraken are true, then giant squids can grab men on the deck of a ship and drag them off into the water, to be eaten. But strand a giant squid on the shore--as occasionally (rarely) happens during a powerful storm--and it can't even move its own weight; it quickly dies.

I also don't get your point about the Tripods' tentacles being metal. Of course they are. That has nothing to do with the physics of holding or manipulating heavy objects with a flexible tentacle/cable vs. a rigid bar/skeleton. An armored cable cover is a metal "tentacle," if you will, but as it's flexible it can't be used to move heavy objects around.

Tentacles work well for sea creatures because they don't have to fight gravity. Land creatures need skeletons and legs with rigid sections to hold up their weight.

Some land creatures do have the equivalent of tentacles. Take a monkey's prehensile tail, for example. A monkey can hang by its tail, and swing on it like a child's swing. But it can not push itself up above a tree limb it's sitting on with its tail, nor could it reach out with its tail parallel to the ground and use it to lift a heavy object (heavy in relation to the monkey's weight). If it wants to lift something heavy, it will use its arms.

If you use an arm with a large number of joints, it would work better for moving heavy objects than would a tentacle. But it still would not work as *well* for moving heavy objects as an arm with a small number of "elbows." The problem is that every place you put a joint, you need to put in "muscles" to allow the arm to work as a lever at that joint. That's true whether it's a man's arm muscles or the artificial muscles of a Martian Tripod. Each joint added requires more muscles, and therefore more weight and bulk. So either you reduce the mass of muscle at each joint -- weakening the arm -- or else you have to make the arm heavier and more massive with each added joint, which has its own obvious limitations.

As I said, the most practical mount for a Tripod's heat ray projector is an articulated arm, not a tentacle.

[Winky]

Maybe Martian technology could make a tentacle that would hold a heavy object steady. Like said, Wells doesn't go into the tiny detail of the machines. Maybe that's what makes them so intriguing is we don't know that much about them except that they kill. Who knows? Maybe the tripods are strong enough to pick up a cylinder with the tip of a tentacle!

[BrutalDeluxe]

Yeah I was joking about the giant squid. According to the legends they could crush the old wooden boats like peanuts. Of course a squid being an invertibrate would be hopeless on land.

[lanceradvanced]

Lensman said:

But strand a giant squid on the shore--as occasionally (rarely) happens during a powerful storm--and it can't even move its own weight; it quickly dies.

Actually, the storms don't seem to have much to do with it, the squids apparently was ashore because they are dying, not the other way around, there's some argument that they also can't handle the warmer surface tempatures,but basically almost any report of a giant squid at the surface, is one that's almost in it's death throws. There's also a great debate on the overall strength of Giant Squid, but other cephlapods have shown signifigant strength. Octupi have been known to cross some distance out of water, either hunting for food, or attempting to escape (there's a great tale about a occtupi, at an aquarium which was found one morning in a tank that used to contain crabs across the room from it's own tank)

(Not that many other marine animals do well when tossed onshore either, that whole thing about -breathing- kinda gets them)

Placing the arm either above or below the main body of the Tripod would not be the best solution. The heat ray is a tripod's main weapon, and it needs to be placed where it will give maximum flexibility in aiming, just like the placement of a main gun on a warship. Attaching the arm to the side of the Tripod would allow the operator to either elevate or lower it as needed. And in fact I've seen a couple of book covers which show the heat ray projector at the end of an articulated arm attached to the side of the Tripod.

Your own argument gets you, attaching to the side of the tripod would create a huge blind spot to the oppisite side, reducing the flexability of aim. A top or bottom mount would only have blind spots above or below the tripod, and would allow the heatray to be aimed early any dirrection, much like the turret of a battleship, if you look at it, the main battery both ships and AFV's is almost -never- sponson mounted, centerline mounts dominate...

Some land creatures do have the equivalent of tentacles. Take a monkey's prehensile tail, for example. A monkey can hang by its tail, and swing on it like a child's swing. But it can not push itself up above a tree limb it's sitting on with its tail, nor could it reach out with its tail parallel to the ground and use it to lift a heavy object (heavy in relation to the monkey's weight). If it wants to lift something heavy, it will use its arms.

Looking at nature, you do see at least one, tentacle that's capable of manipulating heavy weights, an elepahnt's trunk, a prehensile tail, is a poor second, inn comparison. also very recent studies of octupi have shown that they use "pseudobones" when lifting objects, locking sections of their arms into rigid forms with contracted muscles, being under water is also no bar to having to lift weights either, rocks and stones don't have all that much bouyancy.

As for dismissing metal tentacles, it would be a trivial effort to design a tentacle sheeth that would be capable of mechanically locking individual segments together, providing it with a rigid structure that would be capable of signifigant loadbearing, not that the heatray arm would nesc -need- to be capable of bearing heavy weights at a distance, all it has to do really is -point-

[Lensman]

lanceradvanced said:

Your own argument gets you, attaching to the side of the tripod would create a huge blind spot to the oppisite side, reducing the flexability of aim. A top or bottom mount would only have blind spots above or below the tripod, and would allow the heatray to be aimed early any dirrection, much like the turret of a battleship, if you look at it, the main battery both ships and AFV's is almost -never- sponson mounted, centerline mounts dominate...

That's a good point about warships not using sponsons. (Actually, pre-Dreadnought battleships did, but clearly it was an unsatisfactory solution). I was thinking it would be easy for the Tripod to swing around to aim in the opposite direction, but you make a good point, it's probably more important for them to be able to fire in all directions than to be able to swing the projector down for a low firing angle.

[Lensman]

lanceradvanced said:

Looking at nature, you do see at least one, tentacle that's capable of manipulating heavy weights, an elepahnt's trunk, a prehensile tail, is a poor second, inn comparison. <snip>
As for dismissing metal tentacles, it would be a trivial effort to design a tentacle sheeth that would be capable of mechanically locking individual segments together, providing it with a rigid structure that would be capable of signifigant loadbearing, not that the heatray arm would nesc -need- to be capable of bearing heavy weights at a distance, all it has to do really is -point-

Hey, Lanceradvance, I see you've mastered the technique of multiple quotes within one post! Congratulations, I wish I knew how to do that.

Your example of an elephant's trunk is a good one. However, that is relatively short and thick, in comparison to how I think of the Martian Tripods' tentacles. The longer and thinner a tentacle is, the weaker it must be.

Okay, yes, it is possible to design a tentacle to hold the heat ray projector. And depending on how heavy it is, perhaps the tentacle would not have to be excessively thick. And yes, if you made the joints so they would lock into place, it would function almost as well as an articulated arm. In other words, you could construct something much more complex than necessary which, if it was constructed well enough, would work almost as well as something much simpler. But it wouldn't be as robust, and therefore more susceptible to damage. Is there some reason you think the Martians would choose a less-than-optimal solution? I don't.

"A camel is a horse designed by committee." ;D

[Gnorn]

Actually, quoting multiple members is quite easy. Start with the first person you want to quote, click on the 'quote' button and you'll get the page where you can write your post after the quote. Copy the quote (and past into Word for example) and repeat for whatmany quotes you need. Then click reply, paste all the quotes, type in your own comments and presto...

-Gnorn

[lanceradvanced]

Lensman said:

kay, yes, it is possible to design a tentacle to hold the heat ray projector. And depending on how heavy it is, perhaps the tentacle would not have to be excessively thick. And yes, if you made the joints so they would lock into place, it would function almost as well as an articulated arm. In other words, you could construct something much more complex than necessary which, if it was constructed well enough, would work almost as well as something much simpler. But it wouldn't be as robust, and therefore more susceptible to damage. Is there some reason you think the Martians would choose a less-than-optimal solution? I don't.

I was speaking more to the tentacles-as-legs design or the use of the machine's tentacles, to hold the projector. But there's there s a very simple principle that advocates to a less than optimal design, and that principle is -versitility- an arm can do somethings that a tentacle cannot, and a tentacle can do some things that an arm cannot, a design that could do both, would be worth the added complexity.

Overall I think it's somewhat of a moot point, the text certianly seems to describe -some- form of distinct limb, that holds the heatray, but of the arm vs tentacle points about manipulating a weight at a distance for the most part simply don't apply t the restricted purpose of aiming the camera.

Anyway, if I was stuck in the deep desert, I'd rather have a camel, for all that I love arabian horses.

[Lensman]

lanceradvanced said:

There s a very simple principle that advocates to a less than optimal design, and that principle is -versitility- an arm can do somethings that a tentacle cannot, and a tentacle can do some things that an arm cannot, a design that could do both, would be worth the added complexity.

My assumption was that the projector, being the Tripod's primary weapon, was permanently mounted on an extremity intended specifically to hold it. If, on the other hand, you assume the projector was picked up by the Tripod after assembly, like the black gas tubes, then of course they might use a tentacle to hold it.

But you've described your own Tripod design, as seen in your avatar, using a scorpion-tail-like articulated arm mount for the projector. If that's the case, why do you keep advocating use of a tentacle to hold it? Are you just paying devil's advocate, or what?

[HTT]

Perhaps, in the mass of tentacles, there are a couple of thicker ones that act as 'arms'. Some people refer to octopi as having arms...

Or, maybe there are different styles of FM - maybe the martian 'grunts' used FMs with rigid arms, whereas the more skilled martian 'aces' were able to control tentacled models?

I personally, have always seen the heat ray held on a clawed arm, with the tentacles entwining around people. I can't see a tentacle holding a gun very well!!

[Bayne]

[glow=red,2,300]I interpreted the text as saying the heat ray had a dedicated jointed limb too.

As for tentacles holding the smoke launcher, enough tentacles wrapped about it should do nicely.. octopi seem quite the little tool-users.
[/glow]

[TOMAHAWK]

In the book isn't there a scene where the narrator see's a tripod running after some people and tossing them into it's basket ...if it didn't have the strength then why have a basket attached.

What if the heat ray funnel is mounted similar to say the cannon from say.. an Apache or Hind gunship .ie

Rotates to the point of the martians view, it slaves to what the martian targets/looks at ...we are assuming the weapon is held by an arm/tenticle, It could be mounted in a turret underneath the tripod as I assumed the martians felt little need to fire into the air ...and don't forget the tripods were ..what 100ft tall so they would more then likely be firing downwards/stright all the time.

Whos to say the tripod didn't have an arm(s) similar to the Handling machine