ID4 superior to TC's war of the Worlds.

[EvilNerfherder]

Iron Man, we've had this very same conversation about ID4 before so I won't go into it too much.
I've always said I liked ID4 for what it is and I have agreed that SS's WoTW needed more battles so I don't really think it's necessary to state my case, in full, ad nauseum every time.
I like War Movies, I like cheesy SciFi and I like WotW but I don't like the way some of these are mixed (or for that matter the way you would like to see some of it done, as we have discussed before.. but that's just a difference of opinion and I'm sure we can respect each others points of view). But, we actually agree in many ways so I don't really see your point.

[RustiSwordz]

What i say myself in addition to my opening post, is that we needed to show at least one major battle sequence to show just how woefully inadequate we are against them. just as iron man on page 1 suggested.

[FALLINGSTAR]

sunnyrabbiera said:

Anyway i find it equally laughable that an 'advanced' alien race invades Earth and drops dead from the common cold, because they didn't realise we had bacteria. Which is why both ideas requires a 'suspension of disbelief'.

well HG Wells can get away with it because at his time there was not a lot known about Bacteria, though in the modern era.... well the new aliens could have gotten AIDS quite easily and even in the 1800's you had blood diseases that the Martians could have contracted.


but the ID4 stuff... meh, even with the alien ship in roswell the aliens could have had a different operating system...

That's the thing. No matter how advanced an alien species could be there's always the chance that they don't know everything and COULD end up overlooking something like bacteria.

[FALLINGSTAR]

rustiswordz said:

What i say myself in addition to my opening post, is that we needed to show at least one major battle sequence to show just how woefully inadequate we are against them. just as iron man on page 1 suggested.

AAHH! but that would take the spotlight off Cruise for too long! He might have to sue the special effects department if they turn the attention away from him.

I think even if there were some more battle scenes though this film would still be a waste of time. What a waste of good tripods.

[<[Iron Man]>]

sunnyrabbiera said:

Anyway i find it equally laughable that an 'advanced' alien race invades Earth and drops dead from the common cold, because they didn't realise we had bacteria. Which is why both ideas requires a 'suspension of disbelief'.

well HG Wells can get away with it because at his time there was not a lot known about Bacteria, though in the modern era.... well the new aliens could have gotten AIDS quite easily and even in the 1800's you had blood diseases that the Martians could have contracted.


but the ID4 stuff... meh, even with the alien ship in roswell the aliens could have had a different operating system...

Still an alien race that described as being far ahead of us, should be aware that going to another world that's teeming with life will have bacteria and viruses that can kill them.

I doubt it had anything to do with an operating system, just the fact our computer technology is based on what was found in that Attacker craft

nerfherder said:

Iron Man, we've had this very same conversation about ID4 before so I won't go into it too much.
I've always said I liked ID4 for what it is and I have agreed that SS's WoTW needed more battles so I don't really think it's necessary to state my case, in full, ad nauseum every time.
I like War Movies, I like cheesy SciFi and I like WotW but I don't like the way some of these are mixed (or for that matter the way you would like to see some of it done, as we have discussed before.. but that's just a difference of opinion and I'm sure we can respect each others points of view). But, we actually agree in many ways so I don't really see your point.

Well it's not about how i want to see a film or how i thought WOTW should've been. Since i perfectly understand it's not a true war film as such. I'm sure i could go on about it 'ad nauseum', but i won't

So again my point or question simply is how is it gung ho? Is it the general Fighter Pilots' attitude, is it Will Smith what exactly? I'm just curious, it's not an attack on you or anything

As i've already mentioned. If people have a problem with an alien invasion story where the Military is 'gung ho'. That's simply down to the fact they're trained to kill and requires a person with a certain attitude or enthusiasm for the job.

If we're talking about Will Smith then he's just being 'Will Smith'. He's like that whether it's ID4, MIB or Bad Boys.

I just feel that ID4's been labelled as 'gung ho' without any thought about it.

fallingstar said:

That's the thing. No matter how advanced an alien species could be there's always the chance that they don't know everything and COULD end up overlooking something like bacteria.

Although unlikely. If they had been observing Earth then i think they should've been aware of Bacteria.

fallingstar said:

rustiswordz said:

What i say myself in addition to my opening post, is that we needed to show at least one major battle sequence to show just how woefully inadequate we are against them. just as iron man on page 1 suggested.

AAHH! but that would take the spotlight off Cruise for too long! He might have to sue the special effects department if they turn the attention away from him.

I think even if there were some more battle scenes though this film would still be a waste of time. What a waste of good tripods.

Perhaps we should set up a 'Anti-Tom Cruise' thread just for you mate

[Marcus]

The ID4 Invaders where using are satalites to beam down transmissions, from the Mother ship, to the Carrier Disc, those transmissions contained the constant code and input needed to maintain the shields, and constantly update them to the conditions around them, like an attack. It was a simple matter of remotely uplinking a virus into the device that transmitted this signal, which, to use OUR satalites, was written in OUR language, once this virus was upload, the message became corrupt, and the shields fell down. The entire alien Mother ship, or Carrier Disc were never infected, just the device that allowed their shields to be maintained.

When one really thinks over it, somewhat liberally though, it does make sense.

On the other hand, I would like to think that the Lightening Riders of Speilbergs 'War of the Worlds' are much less plausable, even if it wasnt lightening, but merely a substance/energy that was similar to it. I also find it less likely that a news crew would be able to slow this event down on film, to a FPS slow enough to allow the alien craft to be scene riding down into the ground.

This is all based on a persons prefered level of what they can tolerate as being real, and what they cant, but I can believe more in ID4 and its virus, than Speilbergs War and its thunder.

[Zoe]

sunnyrabbiera said:

Anyway i find it equally laughable that an 'advanced' alien race invades Earth and drops dead from the common cold, because they didn't realise we had bacteria. Which is why both ideas requires a 'suspension of disbelief'.

well HG Wells can get away with it because at his time there was not a lot known about Bacteria, though in the modern era.... well the new aliens could have gotten AIDS quite easily and even in the 1800's you had blood diseases that the Martians could have contracted.


but the ID4 stuff... meh, even with the alien ship in roswell the aliens could have had a different operating


system...

I thought that. My own idea was that the Martians - oops! Aliens - would catch some kind of prion disease like CJD or 'Mad Cow Disease' and as their brains deteriorated they would become more erratic and even start shooting each other as dementia really took hold. They could have built up some suspense at the end of the film with people wondering what was happening and then a bit of detective work..... and then an 'ahah!' moment. Come to think of it, the original Chrichton novel on which 'The Lost World' was based finished with the dinosaurs dying of a prion disease and Spielberg threw it out. I expect the beef lobby would have objected.... maybe McDonalds would have pulled out their hamburger concessions. So come to think of it, that idea would never have made it to the screen.

[/quote]

but the ID4 stuff... meh, even with the alien ship in roswell the aliens could have had a different operating system...

Yes I think I preferred ID4. It was a good, ripping yarn with good special effects. I didn't particularly like the battle scenes in ID4 but then I didn't like the dog fights in Star Wars. It's probably a girl thing. The fighting machines - well what you saw of them in War they were impressive.... though they looked a bit unstable. I found them a little unconvincing. Ahem.... I have had dreams with more convincing fighting machines in them The whole film was a bit like a chinese takeaway though..... OK at the time though half an hour later I felt unsatisfied and wanted another one.

Tom Cruse was annoying - as was the brat. I was impressed by the 'battle scene' where the vehicles went over the hill and then came back on fire although it seemed more than a little surreal. In fact a dreamlike quality was cast over most of the film. It did not seem to me like 'gritty realism' which was the effect I get from reading the book. I found it hard to believe in the characters and what was happening to them. I think that a more documentary feel - like Blair Witch might have helped. It was almost as though Spielberg made his decision to tell the story through 'one pair of eyes' and then found he had painted himself into a corner and was unable to resolve the dilemma. If he had kept the subplot of the writer's brother it might have had more suspense because we knew that Cruse would survive and the Ogilvey/Curate/Artilleryman composite character was just too obnoxious for us to care when he died. Perhaps more could have been made of his wife's part. She just isn't on the screen long enough to build suspense for the reunion. I just felt that if it had followed the storyline of the book more it would have had more suspense. OK, so it wasn't good enough to have the couple happily married.... they had to be separated in order to be with the times. A certain amount of updating is necessary when most of your audience has never heard of the original book. Spielberg throws out the baby with the bath water again and again. Why, when there are several interesting characters did they just end up merged together? To throw the emphasis on to the 'star' I suppose. Yeah roight, roight. I like Cruse as much as the next girl. He's eye candy and that's about it.

The trouble is I can't understand why Spielberg did it this way. Look at Jurassic Park - plenty of interesting and sympathetic characters there and no overall star. Or what about Jaws? Nice suspense there because you can't be absolutely sure who's going to get eaten. Or Close Encounters - see there you have an 'everyman' character but he's not the only focus. No, I really felt that in focusing on Cruse Spielberg landed us with a boring ninety minutes of mediocrity.

Oh well! I always did say that that I'd rather have the book.

Zoe

[1953]

I thought that SS War of the worlds was pretty good, its a lot better than ID4.

ID4 is basically one long gung-ho, brain dead special effect.

Sorry My thats my opinion anyway.

[<[Iron Man]>]

1953 said:

I thought that SS War of the worlds was pretty good, its a lot better than ID4.

ID4 is basically one long gung-ho, brain dead special effect.

Sorry My thats my opinion anyway.

Yeah well even though Spielberg's War of the Worlds is in a different league from ID4, hence difficult to compare. It could have taken inspiration from the 'gung ho' elements of ID4. Although ID4 isn't really gung ho anyway. The battles were described vividly in the book, we had a few flashes in the film but that's it.

[TOMAHAWK]

Cheesy I will give you cheesy ... How about Tom" All american hero Cruise" rescues a little brat (like in every film of this sort ...there is always a little brat), with a few grenades that by a miracle survived in a burned out hummer, by getting himself captured by the tripod , and by some spot on detective work sees the outlet for the blood (it's ass) and whoop de do managed to find the only weak spot it had and shoves the grenades up it ass .. hence rescuing poor little brat.


just once I would love a film to end with ..

The Earth getting invaded, blown up, turned into a giant nerfball in space..... AND

people who get captured ie Dakota flaming Fanning ... NOT to get bloody rescued

One of these days somebody will make a film ..WHERE THE BLOODY ALIENS SUCCEED

[1953]

just once I would love a film to end with ..

The Earth getting invaded, blown up, turned into a giant nerfball in space..... AND

people who get captured ie Dakota flaming Fanning ... NOT to get bloody rescued

One of these days somebody will make a film ..WHERE THE BLOODY ALIENS SUCCEED

Actually tomahawk i think that would be a very interesting film and I think it would certainly make people think.

[Pete]

I've said it once, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it til I'm blue in the face... Spielberg should have stuck to the plot of the original, book (or as closely as a movie could) same time period, location, weapons, battles, etc. The movie would ahve been a classic then. The most annoying thing in Speilbergs movie is those damned kids! Ther daughter is too shrill and annoying and the son is a total idiot... I think they shoud have added this scene:

Robbie "Oh I wanna go beat some Martian butt and be a big hero and get all ID4 on their a$$"
Martian: "Oh look, a little human boy... Innit sweet?... Aww look it's throwing stones..."
*raises leg*... *SQUISH!*

I think Spielberg should take a leaf from Peter Jacksons book, he's releasing King Kong soon, and hasn't seen fit to make it a modern retelling, or add a disfunctional family and a complete idiot of a father to the tale.

[chickenstu]

I'd take Spielberg's "War Of The Worlds" over ID4 any day.

[ArmoredTrackLayer]

You see, ALOT of those battles are also told to the narrator AFTER the war is over, In this, we really only see what Ray see's. And, when the characters come up to the top of this hill and we can see that there IS a battle going on but dont see it at all, EVERYONE in the theater did that little, lean to the left to see if we can see what is off screen thing, and that was the intended effect. If it where happening IRL, we would ALL be tempted to look down over the hill and see the battle, but in the end, fear would prevent us from doing it. However, apparently if we DID decide to watch the battle, somehow we would survive and meet our families again in Boston.....waiiiit.

[marciano]

The main problem with ID4 is that the film is too "American", but i like it like a good sci-film film, very similar to George Pal WOTW.

[dogar]

rustiswordz said:

Battles in novel.

1) soldiers fighting martian on horsell common.
2) battle of weybridge & shepperton
3) the thunder child
4) ambush where the martian gets its leg blown off
5) martian attack on london

Actually, if I remember rightly there are only really two featured and detailed battles in the book. The Thunderchild, and Weybridge & Shepperton. The other three were mentioned described in a undetailed and brief way, and I think the martian attack on London was less of a battle and more of a walk-in. There wasn't anybody there when they arrived. Still, like everyone else I would have really liked to have seen what was going on over that hill in the movie. But that would have been good enough for me. The real highlight of the movie is the tension, not the action.

[dogar]

peteuplink2 said:

I've said it once, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it til I'm blue in the face... Spielberg should have stuck to the plot of the original, book (or as closely as a movie could) same time period, location, weapons, battles, etc. The movie would ahve been a classic then.

Then he would have made no money.

[marciano]

dogar said:

peteuplink2 said:

I've said it once, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it til I'm blue in the face... Spielberg should have stuck to the plot of the original, book (or as closely as a movie could) same time period, location, weapons, battles, etc. The movie would ahve been a classic then.

Then he would have made no money.

HE WOULD MADE NO MONEY? False, totally false 100% false.... He is SPIELBERG. SPIELBERG+CRUISE= MONEY... And ALL PEOPLE LOVE BATTLES, it´s the same 20 century battles or 19 century battles...
He would made a lot of money and he would made a classic... But is a stupid director.

[EvilNerfherder]

I disagree (to a degree anyway), Marciano. Let's look at it logically, rather from the viewpoint of a (quite rightly) disgruntled fan of the novel. Spielberg knows what the 'ordinary' moviegoer wants to see and, though we may not like it, he probably went the right way for the demographic he was aiming for. This wasn't a movie for the fans of the novel... we are, after all, a minority in the great scheme of things.
What makes it worse is that he rushed the movie out (that much is obvious), and made a bit of a hash of it. Spielberg is generally very careful with his movies.. I can only assume Paramount got on his case to push it out because of the other movies, or perhaps to ensure it hit the 'Summer blockbuster' slot.
A shame, it could have been so much better.. even in a modern day context.

[<[Iron Man]>]

dogar said:

rustiswordz said:

Battles in novel.

1) soldiers fighting martian on horsell common.
2) battle of weybridge & shepperton
3) the thunder child
4) ambush where the martian gets its leg blown off
5) martian attack on london

Actually, if I remember rightly there are only really two featured and detailed battles in the book. The Thunderchild, and Weybridge & Shepperton. The other three were mentioned described in a undetailed and brief way, and I think the martian attack on London was less of a battle and more of a walk-in. There wasn't anybody there when they arrived. Still, like everyone else I would have really liked to have seen what was going on over that hill in the movie. But that would have been good enough for me. The real highlight of the movie is the tension, not the action.

Yes but you can have all the tension you want in scenes such as the basement one. With a battle, it's a different proposition. You're not waiting for something to slowly creep out of the bushes and surprise you. There's explosions, people dying, shots fired etc, all kinds of mayhem going on. That's why i disagree with this "leave it to the imagination" approach. If you want that go read a book.

I've used this comparison endlessly but i feel it's appropriate. You wouldn't tell the story of D-Day without actually showing what physically transpired. You'd need to glimpse Soldiers losing limbs, or bullets whizzing past to get the true visceral impression of what went on.

Considering WOTW is about the dismembering of mankind, i felt it should've been more visceral and uncompromising in it's viewing.

The only reason we didn't see much of the battle is purely because the film was rushed into production so it could compete with the big films coming out the following summer. Such as Batman Begins, Star Wars Episode 3 & Fantastic Four. If Spielberg hadn't rushed it so much, there the end result would've been a more 'finer' film.