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Post by Charles on Jul 14, 2004 12:44:55 GMT
Can't be bothered to continue my rant... If anyone has any thoughts or questions, then let me know!! ;D Don't worry about it Chappy; you can see from the way he has dealt with me, in Earthrise's world most everyone else is a mind-numbed propaganda-fed Hitlerian automaton - unless you think like he does. Your approach to politics is common and perfectly natural. No one is going to agree with any one party platform all the time...often not even 70% of the time. We might claim a party affiliation or call ourselves liberal or conservative, but the reality is we're all individuals, and at the end of the day, most of us vote our conscience and live our lives basically the way you described yours. We give what we can when we can; otherwise we take care of our own. America is packed full of good people like you - inspite of the hateful misinformation you read from most any news outlet (including America's own) and from the septic lips of the self-hating Michael Moore. Its all too easy for others to read sensationalized news reports about the US, watch reruns of Jerry Springer and Friends, travel to New York, Miami, or LA and assume they know enough about America and its complex system of government and diverse population to comment in as forceful terms as we see here and in the world's media. America bashing is all the rage these days, a new hobby for the world's comfortable middle classes reeling under a mysterious burden of liberal guilt; but as someone here - Bayne, I think - put it so well, its really just Tall Poppy Syndrome.
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 14, 2004 23:34:59 GMT
Love ya JJ I wasn't having a go at you Happy Chappy. Passive citizenship is not a personal criticism, but a requirement in "liberal democracy". By electing "representatives" every few years, we all give up our power to affect political decisions on a more regular basis. Its not you but the system that is wrong, and a sham they call democracy. If the people had power, we wouldn't have gone to Iraq. Especially here in Oz and in Britain, where opposition was 80-90% without UN approval. I was just using your post to make a point about turning our ire towards the people who abuse our power, rather than the people who against the odds are trying to regain theirs. If you are spending your time putting your own house in order and building a stable environment for your family, it is the most important thing most of us will ever do. But one day your children will leave your nest and enter the World. Do you feel any responsibility to make sure when they do, they will not be enslaved and abused by the people in power? I have two girls with another child on the way, and I'll be damned if I'm going to raise these people to have their beautiful potential diverted into some rich person's trust fund, or smashed to pieces on a foreign battlefield to fatten their share portfolios. On the other hand, raising children gives us all a unique power, to shape the next generation. By teaching them compassion, fairness and respect for others, we do more than all the protests and rallies ever held. This is why the Conservative likes Charles are very worried, as the generations advance they are becoming more liberal and progressive. Who could imagine a few years ago we'd be talking seriously about gay marriage and indigenous rights in our generation. The kids are voting Green. If you ever wonder why Conservatives are so scared of public education, and why they want to put University out of reach of average people, we know now. Education leads most people to progressive and liberal ideals, and arms us with the tools to rule ourselves. WE DON'T NEED THEM ANYMORE! Good luck Happy Chappy and sorry if I offended. Earthrise.
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 14, 2004 23:56:16 GMT
No Charles, Government was right. It doesn't matter which Administration is in power, the American Empire continues. The first Republic is over, and has been since the end of WWII. When the US citizens finally realise it, I'd hate to be in your shoes.
As far as anti-Americanism, Bayne and other Aussies here know how far US imperialism has advanced in Australia over the last few years. Under our quisling John Howard, we are accepting US military bases on our soil. Already Fremantle is overrun with Yankee sailors, and the resulting crime and prostitution that goes along with any large mass of lonely males far from home. We are diverting our meagre tax dollars to buy US junk like 40 year old Sea Sprite helicopters, second-hand Abrams that we don't need, two rusted supply ships that have cost double to refit, pissing money at the Joint Strike Fighter we'll never see and joining in on their wasted Missile Defence Program we don't need.
I will turn out onto the street the moment we sign the "free trade" deal with the US, as we are selling our sovereignty for the scraps off America's table. Why else have we sold our cultural future by removing Australian content on all new media? And given up the right for local governments to sponsor cultural events, that a US company could provide. And given up the right to provide social security, health care and other social projects that US companies could exploit. How the hell can we deal with the US on equal terms in bilateral trade? And how do our great friends repay us for sacrificing our own in Iraq? They detain our citizens without charge in a US concentration camp, as examples to the rest of us to put up and shut up.
NO!
Earthrise.
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Post by Charles on Jul 15, 2004 1:52:14 GMT
Thanks, but if I could spin things half as well as you do, NASA would hire me as a human gyroscope...
I must say your last post was by far your most interesting. Looks to me like your real problem is with your own government. God help you if you ever get the mob-rules style democracy you constantly scream for. I'll take my representative republic -- with all its warts, thank you. Our founding fathers knew what they were doing.
It is now clear to me you are banging your frustrated anti-globalist head against the wailing wall, and through your tenor over the last few months I've begun to see from whence your ire comes. I am a great admirer of idealism, but sadly, reality calls...
You cannot convince me that the US and its coalition was wrong to remove Saddam Hussein's bloody regime. Our intelligence was embarassingly bad, quite obviously, and the west has a long way to go to patch it up.
What really blows my mind is that Saddam, who seems to have had little to hide after all, could have saved his people and himself all this chaos simply by opening his facilities to the UN inspectors, and not played the games with them he did. The numerous unanimous Security Council resolutions condemning him came for a reason, after all. At least Khadaffi didn't make the same mistake.
I think we're all disappointed that the UN wasn't the strong peacemaking we wished it was, but of course this could be just the opportunity for the UN to reform itself and streamline its operations to fit 21st century concerns. Will it? Well, its not looking good. Of course we'll have to wait to see if this "Oil For Food" program is as big an embarrasing debacle as many of its staunchest defenders are now admitting it just might be.
By the way, the best way to get rid of US bases is to build your own military to the point you don't need us. Start tending the world's problems without our help. Sudan would be a good starting point. I'm sure the Sudanese would cheer an Australian delegation as loudly as they did Colin Powell last week. Wouldn't they? Next time UN resolutions need to be enforced, let France, Germany and Russia spend the money and send their troops to bleed for Kofi.
As for the US "repaying" Aussies for their sacrifice in Iraq, ultimately it is the Iraqis who will thank Australians for liberating their country and helping democracy take root - and leave you to explain why you justified and defended the terrorists who attacked Iraqi civilians AND your troops after the declared end of hostilities and bestowed upon them the thoroughly twisted title "freedom fighters." The ball is in your court on that one.
And for the record, you're quite wrong that people like me are worried about, shall we call it, liberalisation. Sure many kids think and vote liberal; they always have. Like Churchill once said, 'if you're not liberal at 20 you have no heart; if you're not conservative by 40 you have no head.' Since being progressive today means we should accept sex on a Norwegian stage during a concert as decent behavior; sandal-clad, tattooed and pierced half-wits telling us to "vote green, maaan," or think its 'freedom of expression' for 8 - 12 year old girls to dress like Britney Spears at her most suggestive, then count me out. Come on, you're a father, too. What would you say if these were your daughters?
Though you might be an exception, having children of your own many times causes the most startling transformations in once liberal idealist minds...
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 15, 2004 12:43:25 GMT
Charles,
Why doesn't the multitude of lies the Bush Administration spout worry you? WMD, al-Qaeda links, "we don't want regime change", it's sickening how quickly the justification changes, and how quickly their followers echo. When you have slipping US hegemony, a looming oil crisis, rising Eurodollar and Chinese power, independent Muslims in Syria and Iran, unstable Saudi Arabia and protecting your old mate Israel; when will you answer these questions? Listening to you is like turning on to the Bush home page, its word for word. How do you explain that? Could you have build your house on sand, and the tide's rising?
Yes, I am angry at US attempts to vassalise my country, hence my empathy for other countries struggling against US imperialism. Do not doubt I will become a freedom fighter as this continues, though a non violent one. The only way to stop me is to impose a fascist state in Australia, under pressure from the growing fascist state in the US. Not Jews in our version but "terrorists" as the reason to tear down our constitutions, suspend elections and enact "emergency powers"; military rule. Doesn't recent moves to suspend the constitution and elections in case of a "terrorist attack" in the US send shivers down your spine? The Nazification of America is fast approaching. The real target of all these measures are not "terrorists" but educated, middle-class people who can see through the BS and who will form the opposition. The target is us.
You have exposed yourself by calling the educated and enlightened people of your country and mine a "mob". Direct democracy is not for every society, you need a level of social maturity for it to work. Afghanistan and Iraq cannot enact direct democracy, they have no democratic culture, experience or the required level of education and stability for it to work. Your favourite Representative Republicanism is a stepping stone to real democracy, you'll note the lack of the "D" word in your title. The Founding Fathers may have been right to deny the "mob" rule in 1776, but what about in 2004? Even though the US and its Capitalist sponsors have done their best to deny education, health and stability to the majority of Americans, I still think US citizens are ready for real democracy. I know Australia is and I bet the UK is too, probably the closest to the ideal after years of Socialist governance.
As a parent, I see many parallels with how our leaders treat us to how I'm am required to bring up my immature children. Are you the kind of parent that refuses to let your children grow up, badgering them about their choices and running their lives even when they reach adulthood? Well that is how our leaders treat us, and I for one have left the nest and need them no longer. This "mobster" and millions of others are ready to take responsibility for our societies. And you know this "threat" to the Establishment's wealth and position has scared the hell out of them for centuries. It is the force behind almost every geopolitical event in the 20th century. About time for a little resolution, I think, before billions die to protect their status quo. And they will do it.
Progression is not about throwing out all the rules. I have told my daughters all they have to do is follow my rules until they are sixteen, then we can negotiate until they are eighteen, or before if they can prove their maturity. There will be no Brittany Spears clothes at 11, nor one-on-one dates, nor closed bedroom doors. What I hope to do is give them the light at the end of the tunnel at 16, so they can look forward to a concrete day when "sovereignty" will be handed over. I hope you can now see the point I am making, that authoritarian rule is excusable for immature people/societies but you must give them their right to self rule at some point or they will rebel. If I can hold onto my daughters until 16, I would have done an amazing job by today's standards. We'll see. As I said Charles, despite our polar positions, we are not as different as it seems. And if you could come out from behind your ideology, we'd see even more we have in common.
Because in the end, people of our two positions must work together to save this planet. The alternatives are unthinkable.
Earthrise.
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Post by Charles on Jul 15, 2004 14:57:43 GMT
No my friend, you just don't get it.
But talk about spin! Look up "ideology" in Webster's and you see the definition fits your beloved "freedom fighters" like a glove. And I never said the peoples of the US or OZ are a "mob;" I have said before and say agan that pure democracy is essentially mob rule. Will you listen this time? Why start now, right? We have a representative republic to make sure everyone has a voice. The democratic process is our fuel and our vehicle is our representative republic. We have checks and balances to make sure one group doesn't acquire too much power over another. The electoral college is a good example to give, but it seems to beyond your grasp at present. So many people here and abroad have no concept of what it is or its function, yet it is one of the most brilliant failsafes our founding fathers gave us. Your beloved public education system has seen to it that our kids know nothing of civics or the structure and function of their own government. True, many people choose not to make their voice heard, but its their choice. No system is or ever will be perfect; get used to it.
Look at it this way. You have said, if I remember right, that you fear fundamentalist Christianity more than anything else on earth. Okay. Even if you don't really, what if there WERE a massive Christian revival in the US that saw 60-70% of voters turn (at least in part) toward a more fundamentalist-style platform? Under your primitive democratic system, they should have everything their way because they are the base majority, and the US would resemble a theocracy like Saudi Arabia or Iran - but under a cross instead of a star and crescent. You'd have to be happy because that would be democracy to you...
The fact is, time and again, people like you get hysterical and whine about a lack of democracy when you don't get your ideological way, but that doesn't change the fact that the system works the way it was designed. Bush was just denied a constitutional ban on homosexual marriage by a REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED SENATE - but I know you'll still go on about emperor Bush's religious/ideological juggernaut reforming whatever it touches to its own way. But the fact is this PROVES your understanding of this country and its government is stilted and frighteningly incomplete.
And a point I should have mentioned last time; its interesting to me that Liberal politicians scamper like rabbits whenever someone mentions the word "Liberal." I laughed long and hard not too long ago when Katie Couric confronted John Kerry in an interview, telling him he was shown by a research group to have the most liberal voting record in the Senate. He'd be best nicknamed "The Flash" given how fast he ran from the title "Liberal." Nothing said about his voting record; no proud recital of his list of accomplishments there, no; he just didn't want to be identified as Liberal. Some Conservatives here PUT IT ON THEIR CAMPAIGN SIGNS. Tell me again about this rising tide of liberalisation?
No matter how hard you try, you cannot paint me as a Bush lackey. There is soo much I don't agree with him on that YOU DON'T HAVE THE SLIGHTEST CLUE ABOUT because this entire conversation orbits around the forced removal of Saddam Hussein. Why do you insist on judging me on incomplete intelligence?
Besides, no matter how clevery you couch your words or twist their meanings, Democracy is not really what you're after. You want Socialism, pure and simple. Like all good Socialists, you simply want to take what others have worked hard to achieve, and redistribute it to whoever YOU deem worthy. You cloak yourself in the do-gooder capes of Environmentalism and so-called Cultural Equity, and slap a giant "D" for Democracy on your chest for effect; but in reality you're only interested in vengefully deconstructing the USA and giving it away piece by piece. You'd rather give a man a fish for today than than teach him to fish for tomorrow. And that's the difference between us.
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 15, 2004 16:19:44 GMT
Wrong Charles,
I once thought I was a Socialist, but who am I to dictate what is good for society? Only a true democracy can decide what is good for itself. And a true democracy will redistribute the wealth to make it fairer; plain logic. Why would the majority vote to give 5% of the population most of the wealth, and chose to enter into voluntary slavery to boot? No I have realised the error of my ways and embraced Democracy as the only way to protect us and build a better world. I suspect you do too. When will you admit that Capitalism is exploitative and concentrates wealth in the hands of a greedy few?
I like Republicanism, because citizens have the duty to be active in the decision-making process and act for the common good (see Athens). I have a problem with Representation. As I said, OK for immature societies coming out of dictatorships. But representation distances citizens from the decision-making process, diluting citizenship. And representition also concentrates power, making it easier to subvert. I liken it to a parent taking a child into a toy store and then giveng them the choice between the two worst toys in the store. That is not free choice, and that is not democracy. Democrat/Republican, Liberal/Labor, Labor/Conservative; in all cases both are two faces on the same coin. Both are controlled by the Capitalist Corporate class. Our "left" wing parties have long ago given up on their popular roots and are now beholden to wealthy campaign contributions. Capitalism and freedom are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
You do make a good point about the tyranny of the Majority though. This is why all good Social Democrats espouse a living and enlightened Constitution and a Bill of Rights and Responsibilities to shape society until maturation. You'll note the responsibilities bit, the piece missing from your constitution. I should say that in Australia, we don't even have a Bill of Rights! Our society is in many ways more enlightened and fairer than the US one, but hanging on the thread of shadowy conventions. Now you see why I am so panicked about external fascism, we are unprotected here in OZ. But we are very sceptical about politicians and have a cultural trait of giving people a fair go. It will take force to subdue us, we were born a colony and like the US, take our independence very seriously.
I am only liberal to a point; liberal politics (the raising up of the individual) is killing our society. We are losing one of the foundations of citizenship, the working towards the common good. By balancing Rights with Responsibilities, we can return to a more balanced society. By empowering the individual over society, we are actually removing the individual from all their support groups, making them more easily exploited by Capitalism. Here is the true goal of "liberal democracy". Liberalism is killing the family unit, the most basic building block of every society, and our last line of defence against the machinations of the powerful. Not even you Charles can deny this effect, the family unit is in trouble under capitalist liberal politics.
No individual exists without the society that supports them, try living in the bush on your own and find out. No individual exists in the state of nature, as animals are incapable of free will while spending every minute on survival. Society provides us all with the opportunity to exercise free will and is therefore is our primary concern; is there a better definition of Socialism? Otherwise, what is civilisation?
Earthrise, human citizen.
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Post by Charles on Jul 15, 2004 17:57:18 GMT
Ah, some common ground emerging in our gulf...
I will never deny that Capitalism has flaws, not least of which the concentration of wealth in a comparative few, but it is the best system we have for harnessing what I call selfish human nature. Capitalism places the responsibility of survival and ultimately the pursuit of happiness on the individual and forces them out to become productive citizens.
I don't know what "Capitalist Liberal politics" are. Perhaps you mean it in a more 'classical liberalism' sense. In any case, Capitalism is not the unchecked brutal force it was 100 years ago (when Wells railed against it), and it will continue to evolve along side and in reaction to society itself; remember how pleased Wells was with Roosevelt's New Deal.
To say "a true democracy will redistribute the wealth to make it fairer; plain logic," doesn't mean anything until you define the mechanism for the redistribution. The real trick is finding ways to direct Capitalism to more humanitarian ends. Capitalism REQUIRES individual freedom and liberty - and that isn't a bad thing. And don't forget, Capitalism cannot sell its products to people who have no money. If you want to spread something evenly around the world, start with Capitalism; bring everyone UP to a higher level rather than make a concerted effort to bring a few DOWN in order to feed on their scraps.
It isn't that Australia is more enlightened or fairer, only that your government is more willing to impose itself and its definition of what's fair on the individual. But what gives them or anyone else the right to take what another has earned by their own work or assets? I don't care what the intentions are or how high a moral horse they think they sit upon, what is it specifically that gives them the right to decide who has too much and then take it? Its high time class-minded people stop worrying about what everyone else is making and mind their own business. Though many of us feel trapped in our everyday jobs, we still have it in us to change our position; it is our responsibility, whether we choose to recognize it or not. "Taxing the rich" might make the 'have-nots' feel better, but all that does is empower an already too big and wasteful central government. I'd rather see them keep their money and hopefully either give me a new job, or even a raise. If they want me to work there for long, both these things have to happen. There is no guarantee this WILL happen, but what in life is guaranteed except that bureaucrats WILL waste your money if they get their little hooves on it?
Besides, I can't think of one nation that has ever taxed itself into prosperity.
We agree absolutely that liberalism is destroying the family unit. I love your example drawn from the natural world. "No individual exists in the state of nature, as animals are incapable of free will while spending every minute on survival. Society provides us all with the opportunity to exercise free will and is therefore is our primary concern." All too true. And I will expand on the idea: civilization doesn't just give us the "opportunity to exercise our free will," it makes it our responsibility.
I know you'll recognize that Man departs from the "natural" model by virtue of his free will, and that this free will comes with serious responsibilities, to our families, (human) race, and planet. I'm the first to say "no man lives in a vaccuum" (which is why I'm not a Libertarian), but I know that the moment we begin to relinquish rights and their accompanying responsibilities to a government or other "benevolent" administrative entity, we devolve into a very special kind of animal: a pet. And based on the shattered and tattered nations and societies it has laid waste in the last 150 years in all its guises, that's the most stark definition of Socialism I can think of.
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Post by Bayne on Jul 15, 2004 21:47:01 GMT
[glow=red,2,300]Firstly...
Just a little reminder to every one to stay friendly people or take it elsewhere...
Charles said "Since being progressive today means we should accept sex on a Norwegian stage during a concert as decent behavior; sandal-clad, tattooed and pierced half-wits telling us to "vote green, maaan," or think its 'freedom of expression' for 8 - 12 year old girls to dress like Britney Spears at her most suggestive, then count me out. Come on, you're a father, too. What would you say if these were your daughters?"
Regarding the sex on the norwegian stage, as you often remind people that they can choose not to buy American products (ignoring the fact that such decisions are not always so simple), then anyone who did not concider that decent could simply close thier eyes. As for half wits, don't listen to them. As for provocatively dressed 8-12 yr olds... I might not personally like it, but the only ones I have the right to restrict are my own kids (when I have them). As someone who has suffered literally, physically, for not 'conforming' (yes they used those words) I can't be too critical. For just one of many examples, In high school I chose not to shave. I had a nice beard going before I reached yr 10. Some people acted as if the world was coming to an end. Heck, people acted the same way because my prescription glasses had photo-grey lenses in them and because of this I had suposedly 'ruined' the school yr 4 class photo! the principle is the same, it's just a matter of degree.
As for the Australian Govt. The Seasprite debacle is impossible to overstate. Spending a fortune on machines that can't be given away! to be used on boats that have been cancelled! Everyone responsible should be sacked if not prosecuted!
As for the Australian armed forces.. they have been involved in almost every (if not every) peace-keeping mission the UN has launched.
Regarding the Noam Chomsky style democracy Earthrise is championing... would it work? The Liberal Government was returned partly because one major demographic (women over 30) felt John Howard seemed 'less threatening' than Kim Beasley! This despite the fact that viagra and condoms were to be GST free while all female sanitary products were classed as luxeries and taxed! It's a sad fact that advertising works, many people do not vote on issues but on loyalty or charisma and most people do not even understand the point of voting at all!
On American foreign policy. If The US is going to act on behalf of the citizens of other nations then it has to be answerable to them.
Of course people are going to start 'American bashing' when the US invades countries irrespective of International law (no matter how good the excuse) and then starts locking up the citizens of all manner of countries on all manner of flimsy evidence and then creates a new legal catagory to circumvent having to treat said prisoners with appropriate human rights. To critisize these things is not only apt, but laudable! People also have the right to critisize Corporatism, robber-barron economics, the proposal to return to testing and even USING nuclear waeapons, bully-boy diplomacy and political interferance.
This is not though an excuse for Racism or state-biased bigotry.
[/glow]
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Post by Charles on Jul 16, 2004 0:44:31 GMT
Bayne you missed my point regarding the Norwegian sex display. You SHOULD have made the case that by watching a moronic band called the Cumspots, you’re asking to be offended - and probably will get what you deserve. Of course you can close your eyes at the show or change the radio station, etc, if you are offended, but only with some warning. No, what I am talking about in general terms here are standards. You don’t have the right to dress other people’s children, but you can put them in schools that have standards and codes of conduct and dress that are enforced. Not like in public schools in America today where Liberals have gotten their way and essentially anything goes – teachers are practically powerless to correct aberrant behavior. And come on, we’ve ALL got stories like you where we felt singled-out, piled upon, or unfairly attacked. Is that the best you’ve got!!??
I know full well how involved Australian troops are in many UN missions. My point is you should not just be involved, but take the lead and take the burden off the USA to provide the main military might. Sudan is waiting. Then YOU can be accountable to those other nations and all their precious little vendettas and anger over whatever you’ve tried to do for them and the world at large. Welcome to the ICC.
I'm almost glad Gitmo exists and Abu-Gharib ‘happened.’ In future there will be no way to side-step these ‘legal status issues.’ Everyone should know where they stand, and ostesibly the consequences for their actions.
It still amazes me how so many in the world barely flinch at the beheadings of American civilian hostages (though not at the South Korean), but the moment some reprehensible (and comparatively few) scumbags in the US army pile up nude prisoners and interrogate in inappropriate ways, the world acts like the sky is falling. I love that double standard. Tell me again about bigotry…
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 16, 2004 1:54:47 GMT
Charles, we do agree! People will find out our secret You are wrong about Australia though. It's not that our government is more enlightened and fairer, far from it. We only had three years of Socialist government between 1972 and 1975 under Whitlam, until the Right found a loophole in our constitution and dismissed him. Even those three years has left my country with social programs still the envy of most of the world. I was referring to our popular culture. There is NO WAY we would have an action figure of our politicians, unless it is a funny rubber mask on a comedy show. And giving people a fair go is cultural, obviously not political, as can be seen by our poor government's attitude to asylum seekers, the majority of whom come from Afghanistan and Iraq. We too had our own concentration camp in the desert, with only brown Muslim faces staring through the razor wire. No, Aussie governments are as poor as yours. My worry is that everything that is good about my country is not protected and could disappear in a generation of fascist spin, misinformation, capitalist greed and selfish liberalism. Good point Bayne. I am still working through how to prevent "mob" popularism from ruining our governance. As I said, direct democracy will only work in mature societies. And you can't judge its potential from the years under the Liberals, because of the spin and lies and the stunts to mould public opinion. My style of democracy will insists on full transparency from our governments, no "the intelligence agencies made me do it" crap or "my Ministry gave me bad advice". Real Democracy cannot work without a free press, free speech, free association and an open, transparent government with full ministerial responsibility. We have never seen these things, Bayne. What ever happened to ministers resigning if they are found to have been involved in shonky deals? The right-wing parties just keep going like nothing happened, then these people retire quietly before the furore erupts, dodging their responsibility and limiting the damage to their masters. I remind myself constantly that democracy in Germany created the Nazi Party, and millions of anti-Semitic people joined the party and were directly responsible for the Holocaust. Those who forget are doomed to repeat. Earthrise
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Post by Happy Chappy on Jul 16, 2004 6:30:02 GMT
Love ya JJ I wasn't having a go at you Happy Chappy. Good luck Happy Chappy and sorry if I offended. Earthrise. No offence taken Earthy, I'm an easy-going kinda guy... Any more laid back and I'd be horizontal!! But if you do offend me, I'll be round your place at midnight to put a ferret up your night-shirt!!
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Post by Killraven on Jul 16, 2004 13:59:29 GMT
It still amazes me how so many in the world barely flinch at the beheadings of American civilian hostages (though not at the South Korean), but the moment some reprehensible (and comparatively few) scumbags in the US army pile up nude prisoners and interrogate in inappropriate ways, the world acts like the sky is falling. I love that double standard. Tell me again about bigotry… Just for the record Charles, I found reports of the beheadings horrifying and disturbing. I felt so sorry for the victims and sympathy for their families. I couldn't remotely imagine what it would be like in that situation - not just a horrible death but torture and suffering alone away from anything or anyone recognisable or to hold on to... ..but I felt for them because they were human beings, and as a sensitive human being, I felt their pain too, if only in a small way. But it was because they were human beings - who did not deserve that kind of experience, and not because they were Americans. I would like to think that you would feel equal revulsion and horror if you were to see footage of Americans decapitating Iraqis (or anyone else, for that matter). Equally I felt disgust that the American soldiers should treat their prisoners in the way they have, whether on their own volition or by following orders from above, it makes no difference. And this kind of treatment cannot be justified or belittled by the horrors undertaken by lawless terrorists (of whom this kind of behaviour would sadly be expected). It only serves to escalate the international tension and brings down America's reputation further. Surely that is not the kind of image you want the world to have of your home nation.
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Post by Charles on Jul 16, 2004 15:31:51 GMT
Until now I assumed people could tell the difference between humiliation and cold-blooded murder, but perhaps not. I found the abuses at Abu-Gharib embarassing, revolting, and angering; but the beheadings caused an altogether DIFFERENT and absolutely visceral sort of disgust and rage in me. Looking around the world it would seem you're not alone, JJ, in feeling "equal" disgust for some wrongly humiliated stacked nude bodies as you did savagely beheaded civilian hostages - but it just proves to me the US had no chance of winning the 'hearts and minds' battle anyway. The US is held to nearly an angelic standard - at least so the world has someone to bitch about when a few very human soldiers fail to live up to western standards of decency in war. It also gives everyone else a pretense for attacking the US with more gusto and derision than they did the evil that was Saddam Hussein. Its why I say to other countries step up and do it yourselves from now on and let's see how much different your soldiers are. Sudan is waiting, as well as a dozen other armed conflicts around the world than need to be sorted out. Good luck!
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 16, 2004 17:12:27 GMT
Thanks Chappy, and don't be fooled by our loud voices. It's like animals puffing themselves up to make themselves look bigger when confronting each other. Your ferret would kick all our asses What has been missed here is that Westerners have a particular cultural horror of beheading. And no accident either that the victims were wearing orange jumpsuits. In Israeli and American concentration camps, they use homosexual and female dominance techniques which are designed to psychologically afflict Muslim men. Pushing each other's buttons, what a wicked web we weave. And as horrible as it is for the victim and their families, are we talking about a handful of people beheaded? What about the thousands and thousands of innocent women and children smashed and torn asunder by US bombs? As I have already said, bush a button or wield the scimitar, the end result and subsequent guilt is the same. Do you think the women and children huddling in their homes while the bombs rained down were terrified out of their minds? There is no morally correct way to murder someone. Abu Ghraib is disgusting not only because of what took place. The same thing happens in many US prisons and much worse in third-world jails the world over. What is soul-destroying the mighty US of A, who claimed to champion justice for all, would do such a thing to the very people they were supposed to be saving. It has been said that the majority of prisoners in Abu Ghraib were innocent Iraqis taken off the streets with the intent to terrorise the Iraqis into submission. It's not double standards, it just hard to see the US has none left. If you hear venom in my voice, it is because for many years I defended the USA. They were my champions of justice, freedom and democracy. I argued as fiercely for many years with friends the exact opposite case, defending the US. But four years ago I began to look into what the Israelis were doing in Palestine, and America’s support of these crimes rang my alarm bells. Since then, I have revisited South and Central America, the ME and S E Asia and seen the same pattern. Last year I had to go to my friends and admit I was wrong. I am bitter and angry that I bought the lie and I feel gullible and childish. But as The Who say: I wont get fooled again! Earthrise
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Post by Bayne on Jul 16, 2004 23:41:52 GMT
[glow=red,2,300]Ahem. I was using very silly light examples to illustrate how many people make mountains out of mole hills. You want my best? Ok, two attempts of murder with a knife, one attempt with a motor vehicle, two attempted assaults with hydrochloric acid, two with fireworks. 3 years of total social bellittlement and ostracism, daily torment and verbal and physical assault, daily theft and destruction of property. Three people now have permanent scars in the impression of my teeth (when you are one of the people holding someone down for another to punch and kick it is a mistake to let a limb near their mouth) And much much more. This was the price of being a free-thinker and intellectual in a red-neck mining town where it was cool to be as stupid as possible. Thankfully we moved town before I could get access to firearms, as it was I eventually took a weapon to school to defend myself. Since then I've found out that most of the worst offenders went on to commit some rather serious crimes. As most serious criminals have a history of bullying and of cruelty to animals clearly all such CRIMES should be treated with the UTMOST of concern. Todays bully is often tomorrows rapist or murderer. Not everyone I went to school with survived, so don't give me any ignorant rubbish Neitchian bulldust. There is an epidemic of youth suicide in this country and a significant part of it is a failure to extend law into the schoolyard. Assault is assault. Bullying can be unspeakably horrible, many are all but destoyed by it. Sometimes it is more merciful to just kill someone. I'm one of the rare ones that has mostly gotton over it. [/glow]
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 17, 2004 17:38:57 GMT
Sorry to hear about your experiences, Bayne. And I also have experienced similar attacks in early high school, but nowhere near as violent as yours. We have a cultural cringe in this country against intelligence, it's something you need to hide. Aussies respect sports and larrikin (goofing around) behaviour, good activities to mask any socially undesirable traits. Best to keep intelligence under your hat. I find the description of the Abu Ghraib abuses and torture as collage hazing extremely offensive. And relating our discussion on liberalism, I am liberal to a point. You should be able to do anything that doesn't hurt others. That is the essence of liberalism to me. And to the males out there who have grown their hair and move in conservative circles, you know exactly what I am talking about. Did you find the abuse made you stronger, Bayne? It taught me to project strength to avert and dissuade aggression. I will always be a non-violent person, but they don't need to know that Earthrise
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Post by Earthrise on Jul 18, 2004 13:12:25 GMT
G'day WOTWO, I have just returned from seeing Fahrenheit 9/11. As a fundraiser for my local branch of the Greens, we organised a viewing two weeks before the official launch date here in Oz, at a little art cinema in Adelaide. We sold out (250 tickets) and netted more for our branch than a month of sausage sizzles, recycling drives and garage sales. With elections looming, it will go to good use.
But less about the Greens, I am still getting over the experience of that movie. I left the cinema, my hands shaking and coursing with pins and needles. And it took a lifetime of "big boys don't cry" to make it past the long line of people queuing to see the next session. I shook the hand of our House of Reps candidate and all I could say was "it has to end".
It has to end.
When you hold an opinion that is contrary to the majority, life's a little difficult. I stay away from politics in most conversations, not worth the grief. As upset and angry as I was after the movie, I felt a sense of relief that I hadn't got it wrong. I learnt nothing new from the movie, not one item. But to see my own opinion packaged and presented with such power and passion, I can't thank you enough Mr. Moore. God bless Americans like him, for all our sakes.
Please go and see the movie.
"Fahrenheit 9/11, the temperature that freedom burns"
Earthrise.
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Post by Charles on Jul 18, 2004 14:35:11 GMT
A horrible and powerful story, Bayne. I know a couple of people with stories much like yours (one is an employee of mine). They regard those experiences as defining moments in their lives.
Being the smallest kid in class earned me similar experiences throughout my school years, though no acid or knives, I'm glad to say. Fortunately a demostration one day of just how much I had learned in a karate class was enough to finally put an end to the torment. Then the diplomat in me succeeded in actually turning them friendly. But it sounds like your tormentors were even more braindead than mine...
You're absolutely right about the horror of bullying and often what becomes of the bullies. But after a thorough liberalisation of the public schools in America, teachers are almost powerless to control their own classrooms and schools. After all, how dare they impose their standards and morality on children while taking taxpayer money!? The ACLU will not stand for it!
Makes ye sick, doesn't it? We're reaping what the "progressive" counter culture sowed in the '60s and '70s here. A bunch of kids that know nothing of their country or the world around them, but know exactly how to wear their pants beneath their butts without them falling all the way down.
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Post by Charles on Jul 18, 2004 14:37:26 GMT
I find the description of the Abu Ghraib abuses and torture as collage hazing extremely offensive. Can I be your poster boy, then? Pleeeease!? ;D
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