Trivet
Junior Member
Posts: 43
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Post by Trivet on Apr 8, 2006 21:18:02 GMT
Slight cut and paste cock-up with the last line
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Post by jeffwaynefan on Apr 9, 2006 11:18:44 GMT
I am reading and hearing about a lot of "echo" missing, "reverb" missing and such . . . . I really do think it's down to what ever machine your playing it on.
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Post by Commandingtripod on Apr 9, 2006 11:25:05 GMT
Ah yes that could be true as well H_C.
I haven't got it so I can't really test it.
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Post by Spirit of Man on Apr 9, 2006 11:58:56 GMT
Gave it another listen............. still sounds fine to me. Infact I was listening to the 20bit remaster at least once a day on headphones for a clear month before the re-release in anticipation, and could pick out all the subtle changes of the new one and how much brighter it all sounded. At no point did any of what I was hearing dissapoint because it all improved on the original.
Initially it seems this post was born of the degredation of the recording, now it just seems like nitpicking. "This part doesnt sound exactly like the original therefor its crap!", well its a remaster, it bound to sound a little different, thats the idea.
Like others have suggested, if ya dont like the new version, simply dont listen to it.
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Post by schmokes on Apr 15, 2006 17:24:27 GMT
Well in all fairness I attempted to listen to the the new version again, and it only took about 2 minutes before I found shocking new examples of its atrocity. There seems to be a tendency in some places to layer so many musical elements on top of one another that it has become a garbled mess. If JW was a cook, he would serve your entree seasoned with every single spice on the rack, instead of sticking to his world-famous tasty blend. More is definately not better. But then there are blatant omissions! When the Martians come out of the cylinder, where is the guitar and the (Peter Frampton style) voice-box flange sound of the Martians' grotesque bodies writhing and slavering? Not something that "today's audience" would be comfortable hearing? What cowardice. What lack of musical integrity. At the end of Eve Of The War, the very end lead-out segment combo of the orchestra and keyboards is the same progression that was originally found only at the very end of Dead London - what a foolish mistake. JW has negated the sonic association of that specific sound combo as it pertained to the death of the martians and the end of the war, and chosen to replace the first iteration of it, in Eve of the War, with the last one. In musical terms this is completely foolish. He's sacrificed the clear differential between the denial and anxiety surrounding the martians arrival, and the immense relief associated with their demise. Different emotional concepts should be articulated with different musical representations. And they were, until this abomination was released. Face it. Its over-driven. Too loud. Not how sound behaves in the real world. Its cleaner but poorly balanced, improperly mixed, does not acknowledge what it is supposed to be, glaring omissions and embarrasing additions.
And BTW, this new release is not a remaster. A remaster simply improves sound quality. This is a CHANGED arrangement, a new edition. Not a restoration. And its done with deleterious consequences to its sonic asthetics all around. I will not even allow myself to hear more than I have already.
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Post by jeffwaynefan on Apr 15, 2006 19:15:44 GMT
This is like one of those really bad smelly floaters - doesn't matter how many times you flush, it keeps on popping up.
Yes Schmokes, we get the picture, you don't like it . . . You have said it enough times. Turn the page, there is a completely new chapter on the other side.
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Post by EvilNerfherder on Apr 15, 2006 19:31:27 GMT
.. either that or stop listening to the CD if it appalls you so much. Just an idea.
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Post by David Faltskog on Apr 15, 2006 20:20:48 GMT
Yawn....Wake me up when he changes the record...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz
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Post by Poyks on Apr 16, 2006 2:57:52 GMT
Well in all fairness I attempted to listen to the the new version again, and it only took about 2 minutes before I found shocking new examples of its atrocity. There seems to be a tendency in some places to layer so many musical elements on top of one another that it has become a garbled mess. If JW was a cook, he would serve your entree seasoned with every single spice on the rack, instead of sticking to his world-famous tasty blend. More is definately not better. But then there are blatant omissions! When the Martians come out of the cylinder, where is the guitar and the (Peter Frampton style) voice-box flange sound of the Martians' grotesque bodies writhing and slavering? Not something that "today's audience" would be comfortable hearing? What cowardice. What lack of musical integrity. At the end of Eve Of The War, the very end lead-out segment combo of the orchestra and keyboards is the same progression that was originally found only at the very end of Dead London - what a foolish mistake. JW has negated the sonic association of that specific sound combo as it pertained to the death of the martians and the end of the war, and chosen to replace the first iteration of it, in Eve of the War, with the last one. In musical terms this is completely foolish. He's sacrificed the clear differential between the denial and anxiety surrounding the martians arrival, and the immense relief associated with their demise. Different emotional concepts should be articulated with different musical representations. And they were, until this abomination was released. Face it. Its over-driven. Too loud. Not how sound behaves in the real world. Its cleaner but poorly balanced, improperly mixed, does not acknowledge what it is supposed to be, glaring omissions and embarrasing additions. And BTW, this new release is not a remaster. A remaster simply improves sound quality. This is a CHANGED arrangement, a new edition. Not a restoration. And its done with deleterious consequences to its sonic asthetics all around. I will not even allow myself to hear more than I have already. I've been morbidly facinated with this thread, but I think it's time to speak. I have been a sound engineer and producer for a very long time, and your sense of music analysis seems to have taken on a bizarre, and over technical obsession. "There seems to be a tendency in some places to layer so many musical elements on top of one another that it has become a garbled mess." I can quite happily listen through the whole remixed album, and every part is crystal clear. In fact I applaud the EQ and levels set on the individual tracks, with lots of warm mid range that complements the whole sound spectrum (retaining a great vintage sound pertinent to the material). The quote I just used gives me a feeling that your aural analysis is inaccurate anyway. Any mention of a 'garbled mess' just tells me you're just hearing what you want to hear. "Too loud. Not how sound behaves in the real world. Its cleaner but poorly balanced, improperly mixed, does not acknowledge what it is supposed to be, glaring omissions and embarrassing additions." 'Too loud'? Strange words for a modern sound engineer! As the Donal said, digital mixes are normalized or maximized, and modern technology within post production allows this without perceivable over compression. This is the case with the album. Like I said, I've been working in music for yonks, I know all the tricks in the trade and have worked throughout keeping up with all the technology, and the latest methods of mixing and producing, yet I can still relax and enjoy the real music behind it all. This is a classic 70's album given sensitive and passionate treatment IMO, and if I ever get so cold and analytical about the art please feel free to put a bolt through my head! Again, I'm not intending to be patronizing, and it's nothing personal, this is my opinion on your comments. Being a perfectionist cook shouldn't stop you from enjoying a good feast! Put away the litmus paper and the tweezers and just start eating again.
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Post by Killraven on Apr 16, 2006 14:37:36 GMT
Just to add my two penneth I'm lucky enough to have the six disc special edition. I'm not sure if this is the same mix that was applied to the two-disc edition, but I assume it would be. Anyway, I'm quite happy to listen to both this version, the 1995 re-master and the original pressing vinyl. To my untrained ear, I have noticed subtle differences between all three. Some might be down to the difference in equipment used between the vinyl and CD but I admit there are elements of the SE version that I don't like - its like certain sound effects have been omitted from various passages, particularly from "Horsell Common & The Heatray" and "Thunderchild". This doesn't detract greatly from my overall enjoyment, but the differences are noticeable. HC makes a good point - the quality of reproduction media might make a difference to the level of detail heard (as indeed might the quality of the listener's hearing!). It would be interesting to hear from Schmokes what listening equipment he uses. Obviously if he's got a cheap and nasty mini system then his argument is blown clean out of the water, but if he has top line equipment and he's not tone deaf, then his views should be allowed to be expressed - this is an open forum after all (especially if everyone else is playing their albums on cheap and nasty Alba mini's from Dixons ). We all love Jeff but he shouldn't be considered above subjective criticism, especially from those with some professional experience in sound analysis. I don't agree with Schmokes that the new mix sounds a 'mess', but he is entitled to make his points without being told to 'if you don't like it then go away' - which is what is coming across to me from most of the comments here. KR PS for the 'record' my system comprises Systemdek IIX record player with Goldring 1042 cartridge Arcam CD72T CD player Naim Nac 92/Nap 90 pre/power amp combination Monitor Audio S8 floorstanding speakers
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Post by jeffwaynefan on Apr 16, 2006 14:51:40 GMT
The trouble I think with this particular recording is that we are now so used to listening to the original 1978 score, that any newer mix, we simply pick out instanly any new sound. The music is (more for the better word) etched into our consciousness, that our brain feeds us with what we want to hear.
I had the very rare pleasure of being in the studio at 2 occasions when the 2005 release was being put together. I even had the rare chance to listen to the album BEFORE it was released and BEFORE it was remastered - unlike Schmokes incorrect statement of it being not remastered.
The before remastered version to my ears did actually sound a lot more raw than what can be purchased now, and infact to my ears it sounded better because the intruments did sound more 'live' than anything else heard before. The remaster that followed just balanced certain sounds out.
I believe that many people fall fowl of todays technology - it changes very quickly. The 2005 release of TWOTW is a remastered and completely new version of an album released back in 1978. It's a completely new mix taken from the original master tapes, those very same master tapes that were used back in 1978. Simply digitalised and then put back together in a form of an album with a 5.1 playback.
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Post by jeffwaynefan on Apr 16, 2006 15:00:06 GMT
To answer KR's message. It may appear to many that we are simply telling people to "don't listen to it then", but the original posted message was to tell us its a poor recording to that person - we read it and understood that, but we don't want someone to keep 'ramming' it down our throats at every given oppourtunity. There is no point at all to keep repeating one's self to to have the last say in the matter. We already realise that the poster of this thread does not like the mix of the album. Hope that makes sense
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Post by Spirit of Man on Apr 17, 2006 13:52:22 GMT
Well in all fairness I attempted to listen to the the new version again, and it only took about 2 minutes before I found shocking new examples of its atrocity. There seems to be a tendency in some places to layer so many musical elements on top of one another that it has become a garbled mess. If JW was a cook, he would serve your entree seasoned with every single spice on the rack, instead of sticking to his world-famous tasty blend. More is definately not better. But then there are blatant omissions! When the Martians come out of the cylinder, where is the guitar and the (Peter Frampton style) voice-box flange sound of the Martians' grotesque bodies writhing and slavering? Not something that "today's audience" would be comfortable hearing? What cowardice. What lack of musical integrity. At the end of Eve Of The War, the very end lead-out segment combo of the orchestra and keyboards is the same progression that was originally found only at the very end of Dead London - what a foolish mistake. JW has negated the sonic association of that specific sound combo as it pertained to the death of the martians and the end of the war, and chosen to replace the first iteration of it, in Eve of the War, with the last one. In musical terms this is completely foolish. He's sacrificed the clear differential between the denial and anxiety surrounding the martians arrival, and the immense relief associated with their demise. Different emotional concepts should be articulated with different musical representations. And they were, until this abomination was released. Face it. Its over-driven. Too loud. Not how sound behaves in the real world. Its cleaner but poorly balanced, improperly mixed, does not acknowledge what it is supposed to be, glaring omissions and embarrasing additions. And BTW, this new release is not a remaster. A remaster simply improves sound quality. This is a CHANGED arrangement, a new edition. Not a restoration. And its done with deleterious consequences to its sonic asthetics all around. I will not even allow myself to hear more than I have already. Wow, I missworded in my closing comments, deduct 20 points from me and make me sit on the naughty step for 20 minutes
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Post by krys666 on Apr 17, 2006 14:01:11 GMT
I said before I wouldn' buy it becasue it was different but you lot have converted me and now I want it!
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Post by Spirit of Man on Apr 17, 2006 14:14:12 GMT
I said before I wouldn' buy it becasue it was different but you lot have converted me and now I want it! Its well worth a listen m8, the 2 disc version shouldnt burn a hole in your pocket & unless you really listen, or have a fresh hearing of the non '05 version in your mind, you probably wont hear any differences anyway. Its a great album, simply dusted down and presented to the world once again. And beleive me, it sounds awsome
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Post by krys666 on Apr 17, 2006 14:16:51 GMT
Dont be so sure I wont hear anything if my mind was pure to the knolage. I've been told I have a musical ear for things.
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Post by Spirit of Man on Apr 17, 2006 14:20:58 GMT
Dont be so sure I wont hear anything if my mind was pure to the knolage. I've been told I have a musical ear for things. Dont get me wrong, I wasnt saying that you wouldnt, just that its not as amazing different as some people seem to think, at least not for a casual listen. My only point about that is, that its not like you'll start playing it and think "what the hell is this?". The changes are subtle and even though they arent invisible, they arent glaring you in the ear either
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Post by krys666 on Apr 17, 2006 14:24:25 GMT
The impression I did get from the start of this thread was the differences was huge and very noticable. But if you say and others say they are not then good.
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Post by the Donal on Apr 17, 2006 16:22:17 GMT
At the end of the day, the best thing to do Krys is listen to it yourself and make up your own mind- I still haven't got my copy of the new edition but will be listening to it with a great deal of curiosity once the discs are in my grubby mitts. I'm not going to give away my old edition (the original CD master) as clearly there are going to be differences so it's well worth having both- if only for the collection, but also for reference listening.
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Post by krys666 on Apr 17, 2006 16:36:32 GMT
Sadly my original mastered WotW cd is scratched and doesn't work on my protable cd player, I have to now listen to it on my computer when I ripped it to it and/or my mp3 player.
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