| Author | Topic: HMS Thunder Child FAQs (Read 5,242 times) |
mctoddridesagain Uber Member
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|  | HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Thread Started on Jul 24, 2005, 8:14pm » | |
HMS Thunder Child FAQs
Every now and then, someone posts a query about HMS ‘Thunder Child’, basically asking what type of ship she was meant to be. Described by Wells as a ‘torpedo ram’ or ‘ironclad’, most people, after a couple of minutes googling, find that only one torpedo ram was ever built, HMS ‘Polyphemus’ (http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms_polyphemus.htm).
Finding that the ‘Thunder Child’ doesn’t actually resemble ‘Polyphemus’ to any great extent, the matter then tends to boil down to three common issues, which I will attempt to answer below:
- Was Wells wrong to use the term ‘ironclad’? - Is a ‘torpedo ram’ the same as an ‘ironclad ram’ or ‘ram’? - How come ‘Thunder Child’ resembles no known warship?
Was Wells wrong to use the term ‘ironclad’?
Sometimes, it is claimed that Wells was wrong to use the term ‘ironclad’ because ironclads were wooden vessels covered with iron armour plating. This is itself wrong. Although the first ironclads, the French ‘La Gloire’ and her immediate successors, were indeed wooden ships covered with armour, the first British ironclad, HMS ‘Warrior’, was iron through and through; she had an iron hull with iron armour on top (incidentally, all metal-hulled armoured ships had a thick layer of wood, generally teak, between the hull plating and the armour plating). And although the term ‘battleship’ had been coined at the end of the 18th century, HMS ‘Warrior’ and her iron-hulled successors were all referred to by navy officials, naval officers and the public as ‘ironclads’. The reasons for this nomenclature are complex, and outside the scope of this article. If you really wish to know, PM me!
By 1897, when Wells wrote WotW, the term ironclad was falling out of use, but was not yet dead. In official Navy circles, the term ‘battleship’ had been reintroduced in the early 1880s, but both officials and the public still used ‘ironclad’ for some years. Thus Wells was not wrong, though perhaps slightly behind the times, to use the term, and, in any case, ‘battleship’ does not refer to the type of vessel ‘Thunder Child’ appears to be.
Is a ‘torpedo ram’ the same as an ‘ironclad ram’ or ‘ram’?
No. The term ‘torpedo ram’ is very specific. It refers to a particular, unique warship, HMS ‘Polyphemus’, which was an experimental vessel which, if successful, would have formed the basis for a new warship type. Contrary to older accounts, she was actually a very rational design in which the primary weapon was her battery of torpedo tubes (five underwater tubes, the first of their kind, including one in her ram, and for which she was the test-bed).
‘Polyphemus’ in the Malta dock: note the torpedo tube cap on the tip of the ram
![[image] [image]](http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/polyphemus2.jpg)
In the event, technological developments (specifically, the advent of rapidly-traversing quick-firing, or QF, guns) overtook her and she remained a one-off. Before the torpedo-ram concept became obsolete, I believe that her designer, Nathaniel Barnaby, had intended a larger version, with twin funnels and larger guns. Whether or not Wells knew of this, I cannot say. In any case, by 1897, the torpedo-ram was well and truly obsolete.
An ‘ironclad ram’, or sometimes simply ‘ram’, was a type of coast defence warship. These were effectively miniature battleships, generally second-class turret-ships – they were not torpedo-rams. Some served in home waters, some were sent to Australia. All died out around the turn of the twentieth century. ‘Polyphemus’ is not to be confused with these.
After the American Civil War and the Austro-Italian Battle of Lissa (1866), ramming was enshrined as a legitimate naval tactic. Thus, all large warships were equipped with ram bows, which were especially strengthened. As a functional feature they were abandoned some time during the 1890s. The Victoria disaster of 1893 was pretty well the final nail in the coffin for ramming as a tactic and the true ram bow as a functioning design feature, although the shape was retained until the Great War for aesthetic reasons.
A typical 1890s battleship ram-bow (HMS ‘Nile’): note the reinforcements to the ram
![[image] [image]](http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/nile3.jpg)
How come ‘Thunder Child’ resembles no known warship?
Given the above, why did Wells create a completely fictitious warship that conformed to no real vessel? I believe the solution is simply this: dramatic effect. ‘Thunder Child’ is clearly some kind of coastal defence warship, as she is already stationed close to shore. Wells couldn’t use a battleship, as they weren’t designed for coastal operations. Real coast defence ships were, as noted above, sluggish, second-class battleships. They simply didn’t have the speed or manoeuvrability Wells needed for the action in that chapter, and their big guns were slow to fire and inaccurate. He could have used a torpedo gunboat, say, but that would have had less dramatic punch, lacking the bulk he needed. ‘Polyphemus’, although obsolete by then, did still have a patina of romantic drama, and was a fast, highly manoeuvrable, vessel (note the twin rudders near the bow in the photo above), but was too small (her only guns were Nordenfelt machine guns, rather like Gatlings). Therefore, he created a hybrid warship, taking the best features of ‘Polyphemus’ and combining them with a large cruiser to create HMS ‘Thunder Child’.
Given the above, there is ample room to create your own ‘Thunder Child’. And given the lack of a real-world prototype, artists have had license to do just that, usually depicting a battleship. In dramatic terms, I suspect that that is probably the most satisfactory compromise.
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #1 on Jul 25, 2005, 3:30pm » | |
i think he might be describing the battlecruisers that came into play in WWI and were on there way out in WWII. i think he wanted the power of a battleship, but the agility of a gunboat or torpedo boat. thus the conflicting descriptions.
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mctoddridesagain Uber Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #2 on Jul 25, 2005, 3:41pm » | |
I can see the analogy, and it's an interesting point. You're certainly right about the agility he needed, though not necessarily the gun power (after all, the Army's field guns could take down a Fighting Machine, and they were only 12-pdrs). But I think it's stretching it to see the 'Thunder Child' as a proto-battlecruiser, I simply don't think Wells was thinking that deeply about it. 'Thunder Child' is a plot device.
In any case, Wells's grasp of naval matters was shaky at the best of times. In 'The War in the Air' of 1907, he still refers to battleships as ironclads, and by that time the term had definitely died as, amidst great fanfare, the Royal Navy had already entered the dreadnought age! And the tactics he describes in that novel's Battle of the Atlantic, between the German and American fleets, could have come from a naval manual of the 1880s, not the 1900s. Much the same could be said of the Anglo-American sea battle in 'The Autocracy of Mr Parham'.
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #3 on Jul 25, 2005, 5:59pm » | |
Wow McTodd, some very good stuff you got there! Great research! Wasn't it so that Wells knew practicaly bullocks about army and navy affears? That could add to his missuse of names, types, terms, battledresses and so on.
-Gnorn
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mctoddridesagain Uber Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #4 on Jul 25, 2005, 7:19pm » | |
As you might have guessed, I'm a navy (or at least warship) buff! I couldn't really say anything about H G's knowledge of the army. However, he was a keen wargamer (he wrote 'Little Wars', a pioneeering popular book on wargaming, in 1913), so I assume he knew his onions when it came to military matters. Doubtless, others will know more about that!
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #5 on Jul 25, 2005, 7:59pm » | |
Yes, I know of Little Wars, but I have to say, hardly realistic compared to real military strategy / combat:
http://gardenwargaming.com/wargame/LW39.html
Anyhoo, this is going off topic 
-Gnorn
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #6 on Jul 25, 2005, 8:18pm » | |
well i'm not saying that what he creating IS a battlecruiser, i'm just saying that it is like one. for a torpedo ram, it really didn't use any torpedo's, mostly using it's guns (eventully the flaming wreckage took another down, but that was proably a result from momentum) the pictures i've seen of the thunderchild, like on the WOTW Jeff wayne muscical, look like pre-dreadought battleships, but then in the interview he explains it is just a ship from the era, not the model wells described. i'm just saying is that in retrospect, it was like a battlecruiser, but he was not envisioning it as a future weapon, but as the exciting last stand of mankind, ( being a texan, an alamo, but of a hundred fold more importence).
also, being american, every time i think of ironlads, the first thing that comes to mind are the Monitor and the Virgina (merrimack), the Monitor being all metal and the merrimack being a converted wooden steamer.
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #7 on Jul 25, 2005, 8:32pm » | |
Yeh I always thought of the Monitor when concerning the Thunderclild, that thing was a tough son of a.... errr anyway my imaging for the thunderchild was a combination of the monitor and the earlier dreadnaughts before world war I
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #8 on Jul 25, 2005, 9:53pm » | |
Quote:| well i'm not saying that what he creating IS a battlecruiser, i'm just saying that it is like one... |
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Still an interesting point, though. And, of course, you're right that even though she was a torpedo-ram, there's a distinct lack of torpedo action from 'Thunder Child'! Mind you, the spindly legs of a Martian machine would have presented a virtually zero target for torpedoes.
You're right about Michael Trim's/Jeff Wayne's 'Thunder Child' - she is based on a typical predreadnought (she looks most like a 'Canopus' class battleship).
Quote:| ...also, being american, every time i think of ironlads, the first thing that comes to mind are the Monitor and the Virgina (merrimack), the Monitor being all metal and the merrimack being a converted wooden steamer. |
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Ah yes, the good old 'cheesebox on a raft'. Oddly enough, Graeme Barker, illustrator of the Folio Society's edition of WotW published last year, depicts the 'Thunder Child' as a 'Monitor' lookalike. Completely wrong for a British warship. But then Alvim-Correa's 'Thunder Child' is very French in appearance (hardly surprising as he was living in Belgium).
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #9 on Jul 26, 2005, 4:02pm » | |
Quote: And, of course, you're right that even though she was a torpedo-ram, there's a distinct lack of torpedo action from 'Thunder Child'! Mind you, the spindly legs of a Martian machine would have presented a virtually zero target for torpedoes. |
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well if it was the ss version, it could work. anyway, it might not be the torpedo were thinking of. my knowlege of 19th cetury navies is limited to the civil war, but some of those torpedos are what today call mines. the famous condereate david class submarine, hunley, had a 'torpedo' that was jammed into the side of a ship, then detonaited by wire. of course, i think they had torpedo boats that shot what we now call torpedos by the 1890's, but torpedo ram gice be the impression that they filled a prong with dynamite or something. altough i know i'm wrong.
about power, i think that wells wanted them to go down with style. so i thinking that the thunder child would be the biggest and best weapon the british had to offer against the martians. so in my mind it would have had 15-16 inch guns firing, about the biggest for the time.
by the way, is the torpedo ram one of those failed experimental warships? if so, have you ever heard about the dynamite gun ship?
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #10 on Jul 26, 2005, 6:04pm » | |
Quote: Quote:| well i'm not saying that what he creating IS a battlecruiser, i'm just saying that it is like one... |
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Still an interesting point, though. And, of course, you're right that even though she was a torpedo-ram, there's a distinct lack of torpedo action from 'Thunder Child'! Mind you, the spindly legs of a Martian machine would have presented a virtually zero target for torpedoes.
You're right about Michael Trim's/Jeff Wayne's 'Thunder Child' - she is based on a typical predreadnought (she looks most like a 'Canopus' class battleship).
Quote:| ...also, being american, every time i think of ironlads, the first thing that comes to mind are the Monitor and the Virgina (merrimack), the Monitor being all metal and the merrimack being a converted wooden steamer. |
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Ah yes, the good old 'cheesebox on a raft'. Oddly enough, Graeme Barker, illustrator of the Folio Society's edition of WotW published last year, depicts the 'Thunder Child' as a 'Monitor' lookalike. Completely wrong for a British warship. But then Alvim-Correa's 'Thunder Child' is very French in appearance (hardly surprising as he was living in Belgium). |
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Some excellent work there McTodd, thank you for doing this for the site.
Your correct about the Mike Trim 'Thunder Child' vessel, she was based on the 'Canapus' class as he describes in the Q&A below.
Q: Was the Battleship `Thunder Child’ based on any real ship, or was it your own design? A: She was largely based on one of the Royal Navy’s Canopus class, pre-Dreadnought vessels, although there may have been some details grafted on from the later improved Canopus class ships. It is also possible that there were some artistic liberties taken during the execution of the work, but after nearly thirty years, it’s difficult to be certain. I did consider designing her and have done this a number of times before, for book covers. As the story is set in Great Britain and therefore, it would be the navy of that day that would have to deal with the situation. Whilst the ship would have represented the cutting edge of British naval power at the time, I think the actual vessels of that class were all launched shortly after the book was written.
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mctoddridesagain Uber Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #11 on Jul 26, 2005, 8:24pm » | |
Quote:| well if it was the ss version, it could work. anyway, it might not be the torpedo were thinking of. my knowlege of 19th cetury navies is limited to the civil war, but some of those torpedos are what today call mines. the famous condereate david class submarine, hunley, had a 'torpedo' that was jammed into the side of a ship, then detonaited by wire. of course... |
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You're absolutely right about the Civil War! Here, I'm afraid, I shall ramble...
What we today refer to as 'mines' (explosive charges with triggers, lurking under water - the classic image is of large spherical drums with horns) were referred to in the early to mid 19th century as 'torpedoes'. Hence Farragut's famous cry, at Mobile Bay, of 'Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!' was in reference to what we would call a mine-field, and not to the self-propelled underwater missile we think of today as a torpedo. The term 'mine' was not known, at least not in naval terms.
There were 'spar torpedoes', the most famous usage being, as you mention, CSS 'Hunley' against USS 'Housatonic'. These were explosive charges mounted on long poles on the bows of launches and submersibles (such as the Conderate 'Davids'). They were virtually suicide weapons, as the idea was to charge into an enemy and ram the charge into his side. The Turks also used them against the Russians in 1878.
However, Robert Whitehead, a British engineer working in Italy, invented a self-propelled torpedo in 1874(?), which he called a 'locomotive torpedo'. It was years before the device was made practicable. The first Whitehead locomotive torpedo to be fired in action was used by HMS 'Shah' against the renegade Peruvian turret-ship 'Huascar' (which is today a museum ship in Chile) - the sluggish 'Huascar' actually outran the Whitehead torpedo!
Eventually, the locomotive torpedo became a practicable weapon, and the name was shortened to simply 'torpedo'. The stationary marine bomb then became the 'mine' (I suspect the name followed land usage, as 'mines' were explosive charges laid by sappers, who were generally recruited from the mining profession, as they were expert diggers).
'Polyphemus' was the trials vessel for underwater torpedo tubes, as by the 1880s the 'locomotive torpedo' was viable (for the first few years of their development, the method of launching was from a cradle-like mechanism above water). Small launches had been equipped with these devices, but 'Polyphemus' was the first attempt to build a large enough torpedo vessel which could operate with the fleet, and then strike out on her own to attack an enemy in battle. She had an armoured deck proof against glancing shots at close range, and the speed and manoeuvrability to get close enough to attack and then escape.
The largest naval gun of the 1890s in Royal Navy use was the 110-ton 16.25 inch breech loader. The infamous 'Victoria' and her sister 'Sans Pareil' each carried two apiece, as did 'Benbow' from another class. They weren't actually very effective, as rate of fire was pathetic, accuracy was poor, and the barrels drooped at the muzzle appallingly. Beyond the technology of the day, they were more for show than anything else. But they didn't half put up a show!
HMS 'Victoria' at gunnery practice
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mctoddridesagain Uber Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #12 on Jul 26, 2005, 8:29pm » | |
Quote:[quote author=mctoddridesagain board=book thread=1122236064 post=1122328430]Some excellent work there McTodd, thank you for doing this for the site.
Your correct about the Mike Trim 'Thunder Child' vessel, she was based on the 'Canapus' class as he describes in the Q&A below. |
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I thang you - it is, quite frankly, the only area in which I can even pretend to have any degree of expertise, so I'm quite glad of the chance to show off!
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #13 on Jul 26, 2005, 8:41pm » | |
yeah, but should i put torpedo ram as an oddball vessel with the likes of the dynamite gun ships (not actual class, i think, can't remember the right one)?
i learned most of my knowlege of the naval side of the civil war from a book called Damn The Torpedos! which actually talks about that in on chapter. the naval part of the war for the union was to stop the blockade runners from getting supplies from you brits for the war effort, which you relied upon for cotton and other aguculture stuff. in turn, the south made a rag tag navy to protect them. later, the goal of the union was to split the south in two, so there were battles up and down the missipi. am i right?
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #14 on Jul 26, 2005, 8:50pm » | |
Quote:| yeah, but should i put torpedo ram as an oddball vessel with the likes of the dynamite gun ships (not actual class, i think, can't remember the right one)? |
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Ooh, I forgot the dynamite gun! Zalinski, I think - it was an atempt to harness the power of dynamite at a time when shells contained the much weaker black powder. Dynamite was too unstable to fire from normal guns, hence Zalinski's giant air gun. Shortly after, Lyddite, Poudre B, and other stable nitrocellulose explosives were developed, thus putting paid to the short-lived Dynamite Gun.
And yes, you're right, it was a real oddball, on a par with the torpedo-ram!
About the Civil War, yes, I'm pretty sure you're right, but it's a while since I've read up on it so I'm a bit rusty there! But it does sound right.
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #15 on Jul 26, 2005, 8:57pm » | |
yeah, i think there was a problem about it going off prematurally and damaging the gun. what do you think is the weirdest vessel ever made?
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #16 on Jul 26, 2005, 9:52pm » | |
I think you're right there! I think they used them during the Spanish-American War (there was a special Dynamite Gunboat, the 'Vesuvius'), but I wouldn't want to be near one when it was fired...
As for the oddest ship, well, the nineteenth century was rife with experimental vessels, civil and naval.
Not necessarily the oddest, but perhaps my favourite odd warships must be the circular ironclads the Russians built:
http://www.d3.dion.ne.jp/~ironclad/wardroom/Popov/popov.htm
This model gives a very good idea of the appearance of one (the model, incidentally, is barely 2 inches across - sadly, it's not mine!):
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #17 on Jul 26, 2005, 11:18pm » | |
if you mounted some jet engines to it, you could pass it off as a flying saucer! (i mean at 3 miles a way it would seem like one.) i love failed inventions, but some of the strangest naval craft are in common use today (like subs).
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stuka Full Member
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #18 on Jul 27, 2005, 11:09pm » | |
back on subject, what else could the thunder child be? a destroyer or frigate? a cruiser?
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|  | Re: HMS Thunder Child FAQs « Reply #19 on Jul 30, 2005, 1:44am » | |
tod? don't you want to continue talking about the thunder child?
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